Focus TDCi diesel - yay or nay

SLITHER99 · 27 November 2012 at 8:21AM

Well, I'm looking at a 58 plate 2.0 TDCi 70k miles. Higher than I'd like, but I'm assuming it's an ex-fleet car and therefore fully serviced and the price is right.

Going to view open minded, but still thinking I probably don't do the mileage to warrant going for it. But I may as well have a poke around.

steve-L · 27 November 2012 at 9:33AM

JonathanA wrote: »

Sorry Paul, my doom & gloom comment wasn't aimed at you! I do get annoyed sometimes that there is a very anti diesel movement, when as you say, not all diesels engines are bad. I know our experience isn't representative, and I agree on th Vauxhall 1.9 - had one very briefly, total pile of rubbish, not helped by the very indifferent attitude of the dealer.

As with all engines, petrol and diesel, there are good and bad. Knowing the 1.6 is the one to avoid is very helpful though, as we had thought about that in the Mondeo to replace the one we have when we eventually part company with it. Maybe that isn't such a good idea!

The 1.6 DuraTorq in a Ford is an accident waiting to happen. As already indicated problems with the oil flow mean the turbo's go frequently and expensively. The FULL Ford TSB lists a whole range of parts that should be replaced with the Turbo.... and its a long list.
The engine seems a lot worse in the Ford's, I guess the PUG's have a different oil routing.

The Focus itself is a intermediate car. Somewhere between a Mondeo and Fiesta it doesn't necessarily benefit being built for a fleet market and maintained. It would be lower down employees get a Focus as fleet car (unless you go for the Titanium or Ghia as someone else said) and they don't necessarily get the 'full service' as a more senior rep in a Mondeo Titanium. It is really more down to individual companies .....

Its actually a nice car to drive when working.... but I'd worry about the service history unless you get a full book listing EVERYTHING including changes of tyres. (If the company pay for budget tyres they are probably paying for other budget parts).

I'd expect the 2.0 to be as reliable as a Mondeo.... in the engine side as its the same engine.... (but that's just a guess).

As for the diesel debate.... yes it's tiresome....
I was a confirmed 97 octane petrol-head but having gone over to diesel once I have now done it again.....

It really is down to what you buy.... and my Honda and BMW are both rock solid reliable.... so long as you do enough non-town driving to heat the DPF once a week or so then it's not a problem on MOST cars.... obviously there are exceptions.

My Honda Accord 2.2TDCI has 175k..... I have a full SH and every part/receipt and it cost me £400 for unscheduled work in the last 25k, a ball joint and the turbo failed (about £280 from memory). The local garage stripped down the turbo, cleaned it and put it back together 10k ago and its been perfect since.

Meanwhile my mothers Corsa (Petrol) has cost her (me) far more and its only got 45k.....

GolfBravo · 27 November 2012 at 10:12AM

steve-L wrote: »

The engine seems a lot worse in the Ford's, I guess the PUG's have a different oil routing.

It's a little more complicated actually. Both Pug and Ford versions of the engine have the same oil routing, the main difference is the shape of the sump - I believe Ford place this engine in the engine bay on a different angle, hence different sump shape and oil pump pick up point. It just collects all the sludge from the bottom of the sump.

On top of that, these engines greatly suffer from poor injector design (injector number 3) - what happens is that the injector seal develops a leak, and it starts blowing carbon inside the engine. You end up getting carbon build up at the bottom of the sump, the carbon then eventually ends up in the turbo oil feed, and then blocks it and the turbo goes bang.

So the real killer is the faulty injector - and the worst thing is that you can drive thousands of miles unaware of any injector problems. Regular gravity oil changes usually get rid of the carbon just in time. But then not everyone sticks to the recommended oil change schedule - frequent short distance trips require more frequent oil change intervals (short trips are actually considered heavy duty use).

The moral of the story is that it is a real gamble to buy a used 1.6 TDCi powered car - they require very frequent oil changes, so it all must be documented. And the oil must be replaced thoroughly - no oil change suction pumps, just the old school gravity method, which means that the engine bottom cover must be removed (and some garages just can't be bothered).

And if you are going to spend £60 for extra oil changes every 6-8K miles, is diesel the right engine for you?

steve-L wrote: »

I'd expect the 2.0 to be as reliable as a Mondeo.... in the engine side as its the same engine.... (but that's just a guess).

Different engine. DW10. Quite bullet proof (obviously provided you service it correctly).

steve-L wrote: »

It really is down to what you buy.... and my Honda and BMW are both rock solid reliable.... so long as you do enough non-town driving to heat the DPF once a week or so then it's not a problem on MOST cars.... obviously there are exceptions.

Well, that is the key really, isn't it. With diesels you need to do enough miles for the engine to reach it's full operating temperature to get the full benefit of diesel. And you really must look after it - turbos are especially fragile.

SLITHER99 · 27 November 2012 at 10:48AM

Well, I went and came back again, not for me.

My biggest gripe was yet again, the MOT cert stated there was an Advisory issued and it had obviously been removed from the cert (staple hole in the corner). The salesman just stated this was just the emissions sheet they had taken off. The last two service stamps also looked suspect - suspiciously the same dealer stamp (the dealer I was looking at) at "just exactly the right time", same handwriting, different color pens and it just looked like it had been made to look good. Considering the car was a "new arrival" I found this suspect.

Took the car for a drive and I could definitely see why people like driving diesels. Lots of torque and the car was quite clean inside. What finally put me off was the fact that the boot lid switch on the dash refused to work and I noticed that the central locking also didn't work - in that you locked the car and it immediately reopened. It just reminded me too much of the central locking horrors that plagued my mondeo.

On top of that, the oil on the dipstick was very goopy despite having just been on a lengthy test drive (about 40 minutes).

I have to say, this may be a bad example, but I'm kinda put off. That said, I quite like the focus, so I may go try a petrol one, but not after I try some other manufacturers.

steve-L · 27 November 2012 at 12:56PM

GolfBravo wrote: »

It's a little more complicated actually. Both Pug and Ford versions of the engine have the same oil routing, the main difference is the shape of the sump - I believe Ford place this engine in the engine bay on a different angle, hence different sump shape and oil pump pick up point. It just collects all the sludge from the bottom of the sump.

I'll just trust you on that.. you know way more than I do :A
I researched the 1.6 after problems and you see WAY more on ford than PUG (PSA)... so I based my observation on that....

Well, that is the key really, isn't it. With diesels you need to do enough miles for the engine to reach it's full operating temperature to get the full benefit of diesel. And you really must look after it - turbos are especially fragile.

This is where there are different definitions of Fragile ....
I honestly expect my Honda 2.2 TDCI to outlast the rest of the car (and the rest of the car is a Honda)...
It's not exactly exciting to drive (unlike the 3.0D BMW) but I don't think it's fragile IF looked after....
From a different perspective how many 1.2 petrol engines are reliable at 175,000 miles? So this is a different definition of fragile?

Of course pretty much any moving part at 10k+ RPM is fragile when deprived of lubricant and coolant.... but I honestly think this has more to do with the expected buyer's of the car and company making it than than a simple (turbo) diesel is fragile....
Again, the old PSA 1.9 TDI seems rock solid after all these years, I bet less breaks than the newer HDI's....

I think the biggest difference is between cars made to be reliable for the fleet markets and ones to sell to consumers....

I always wondered who buys a NEW mid-range car....
I know lots of people retire and buy a new or newer small car not expecting to do lots of miles anymore....
I know fleets buy the Mondeo/Vectra/320/Passat but who buys the mid-range Focus 1.6TDCI NEW?

I suspect the answer to that will correlate with its reliability.

steve-L · 27 November 2012 at 1:06PM

SLITHER99 wrote: »

Well, I went and came back again, not for me.

My biggest gripe was yet again, the MOT cert stated there was an Advisory issued and it had obviously been removed from the cert (staple hole in the corner). The salesman just stated this was just the emissions sheet they had taken off. The last two service stamps also looked suspect - suspiciously the same dealer stamp (the dealer I was looking at) at "just exactly the right time", same handwriting, different color pens and it just looked like it had been made to look good. Considering the car was a "new arrival" I found this suspect.

Took the car for a drive and I could definitely see why people like driving diesels. Lots of torque and the car was quite clean inside. What finally put me off was the fact that the boot lid switch on the dash refused to work and I noticed that the central locking also didn't work - in that you locked the car and it immediately reopened. It just reminded me too much of the central locking horrors that plagued my mondeo.

On top of that, the oil on the dipstick was very goopy despite having just been on a lengthy test drive (about 40 minutes).

I have to say, this may be a bad example, but I'm kinda put off. That said, I quite like the focus, so I may go try a petrol one, but not after I try some other manufacturers.

Or try something else like the 2.0D.....
The focus is actually quite nice to drive.... and the 110ps 1.6 doesn't feel at all underpowered.... (Didn't try the 90).... but overall you have to ask is it built to last?

All of the points you noted would be a walk away for me....
Any electrical fault can be an indication of CANBUS problems that might cause other problems elsewhere (the doors are just a inconvenience) but if this is the sensors on the turbo or other parts related to engine management then this can quickly lead to other problems that are more than an inconvenience and very expensive.

SLITHER99 · 27 November 2012 at 9:39PM

The Focus I tried was a 2.0 TDCi.

Well anyway, tried another tonight, a 1.6 petrol. Not so much torque as the 2.0 Diesel but the auto box seemed to better with the petrol engine.

Good points: liked the car, I feel more confident with petrol and this one, er, worked... All the gadgets and bits worked, dealer seemed to be a lot cleaner and the car was valeted. No bits of missing trim, marks or anything like that.

Down side: Again paperwork. I had to damn near argue with the guy to see it. I eventually got to see the V5 and determined that it's potentially an ex-rental car. The sales guy is of the opinion that it was definitely owned by a single user at the head office which may be true given it's a Titanium spec. However again the service history looked "improved" and again the advisory notice was missing from the MOT, which is due next month. Also, there appeared to be only a single non-remote key.

I said that being as it's possibly ex-rental, I'd like to order an RAC inspection first (on my dime), however before I get into that, I'd like the MOT done with the Advisory provided, a full service as I wasn't convinced the service history was totally legit, a new remote key ordered to replace the missing one and a full year's warranty - the Ford one, not the hogwash that Evans Halshaw sold me last time that covered sod-all.

The guy welcomed the inspection but stated catagorically that he was not going to MOT it or service it as neither were due and that he could order a new remote key at my cost. I walked, saying that my offer was still good over tomorrow and I'd call back at closing for his final word; and no I didn't haggle on the window price, which is more or less what similar specs and mileages are going for on autotrader.

I did stop by a neighbouring Kia dealership and tried out a Ceed. I handed it back after ten minutes. I have no idea who would voluntarily pay for such a shed on wheels!!!

I'm off to see a new-shape Astra tomorrow. Keeping options open.

GolfBravo · 27 November 2012 at 11:50PM

SLITHER99 wrote: »

I eventually got to see the V5 and determined that it's potentially an ex-rental car. The sales guy is of the opinion that it was definitely owned by a single user at the head office which may be true given it's a Titanium spec. However again the service history looked "improved" and again the advisory notice was missing from the MOT, which is due next month. Also, there appeared to be only a single non-remote key.

Car rental companies buy most of their stock (at big discounts obviously). However, they also lease some cars from manufacturers - a manufacturer registers the car in their own company name, and then leases it to a rental company for peanuts. When the rental company are finished with it they just return it to the manufacturer who then sells it at an auction. Usually excess/old stock is used, and it really doesn't matter what spec the car is - it could be a base model, titanium, ghia, whatever. Usually something sales-proof.

But then manufacturers also register cars for their internal use: company cars and employee lease cars.

Employee lease cars are usually lower miles than ex-rentals - around 6-8K miles and 12K+ miles respectively - and in much better condition. No missing keys, scratches, etc.

Another giveaway would be the service book - employee lease cars usually have name of the first driver written in there, ex-rental/press cars have just the company name.

HTH