Unnecessary Eicr work?

88888

I've recently had an electrician around to do an EICR on my HMO property. The property consists of four flats (each flat on their own floor but not accessed via one door hence a license able HMO even though they each have separate metering for utilities). The property was completely renovated in 2005 so all utilities were new, Electricity meters, wiring, fire alarms all to standard of that time and signed off as such on completion with the appropriate paperwork. Anyway, with the latest inspection I've had with this electrician I'm being told that because some of the wiring and fusebox installations do not comply to 2008 standards they are illegal and I need to have work done to make it comply. He did not issue an EICR detailing categories of concern i.e C2, C3 etc. Instead I've been given a quote and outline of work he suggests being done. Is this unnecessary work for an EICR if the existing state of electrics is safe and compliant to regulations when they were installed in 2005? I have copied and pasted two quotes he has given me below. One for the flats and one for Landlord and communal areas of the property. I know this is a bit long winded but would appreciate anyone in the know giving me advice. Thank you in advance!

Quote given by Electrician:
Further to our recent visit to the above address, and upon carrying out detailed visual inspections as well as testing on your electrical wiring installation, we regret to inform you that your current wiring does not comply with the safety requirements of BS7671: 2008, and therefore, we advise a partial upgrading to be carried out.
This work shall consist of the following items:

MAINS AND GENERAL:
This installation is supplied via 1x Siemens box with only 1x RCD
Alter the old existing BS3036 fuse box by moving the 2x non protected MCB to the RCD protected side of the box.
Install 1x builder’s temporary supply to have some power while altering the box.
Supply parts and upgrade to BS7671:2008 all the hard wired existing alarms by opening the 2x alarms and doing the markings according to BS7671:2008.
Also open all sockets, fuse spurs, lights and switches and do the BS7671:2008 upgrading to the rest of the flat by opening these items and installing the marking to wires.
Supply parts and create the earth equipotential cross bonding to the boiler pipes.
The bathroom light is on its way out.
Replace light purchased by customer.
Label box, test and certify.

We estimate the cost of labour and materials will be £471.33 subject to our standard terms and conditions as shown below.

NOTES:
Bathroom lighting (where applicable) will be waterproof light (IP64) with pull cord switch or switch located outside the bathroom. These (if required) lights will be provided by customers. Any needed new extractor fan will be on customer.

No allowance has been made for decoration work such as wall paper or painting.

All work will be guaranteed for a 12 month from the time of completion.

On completion of the work we shall issue an Installation and completion certificate in accordance with BS7671:2008 and the NIC EIC code of conduct.


And second quote on landlord areas:



Further to our recent visit to the above address, and upon carrying out detailed visual inspections as well as testing on your electrical wiring installation, we regret to inform you that your current wiring does not comply with the safety requirements of BS7671: 2008, and therefore, we advise a partial upgrading to be carried out.
This work shall consist of the following items:

MAINS AND GENERAL:
This installation is supplied via 1x WYLEX box with NO RCD WHATSOEVER
This WYLEX C.U. will be RCD protected by adding 1x 63 or 80 amps RCD outside the box, on outside enclosure and the related 25mm cables for N/L and 1x 16mm Green/Yellow for earth.
Install 1x builder’s temporary supply to have some power while altering the box.
4x MCB are not complying for they are not the same make as box, therefore illegal.
Supply parts and replace 4x MCB with proper 4x type B Wylex MCBs
Supply parts and upgrade to BS7671:2008 all the hard wired existing alarms by opening all the alarms in hallway and 4x landings and doing the markings according to BS7671:2008.
Also open all blanked sockets, lights and switches and do the BS7671:2008 upgrading by opening these items and installing the marking to wires.
ALSO, FOR THE ENTIRE BUILDING, DO A CONTINUITY AND ISOLATION TESTS.
Label box, test and certify.

We estimate the cost of labour and materials will be £653.31 subject to our standard terms and conditions as shown below.

NOTES:
Bathroom lighting (where applicable) will be waterproof light (IP64) with pull cord switch or switch located outside the bathroom. These (if required) lights will be provided by customers. Any needed new extractor fan will be on customer.

No allowance has been made for decoration work such as wall paper or painting.

All work will be guaranteed for a 12 month from the time of completion.

On completion of the work we shall issue an Installation and completion certificate in accordance with BS7671:2008 and the NIC EIC code of conduct.


We trust that the above is satisfactory and meets with your requirements and hence we await your further instructions.

red40

88888 wrote: »

We trust that the above is satisfactory and meets with your requirements and hence we await your further instructions.

Simple answer to the electrician is:- "thank you for highlighting the work and my further instruction is - can I please have my Electrical Installation Condition Report that I have paid for?"

It is then upto you if you get another electrician in to either quote for the works or you use this chap.

harryhound

I am no electrician but I am interested in the simple "estimate" [not quotation !] for the landlord's part of the HMO.

How come you have a consumer unit (fuse box) badged "Wylex" but with some other company's Miniature Circuit Breakers?

What does each of the MBC's supply ? (eg lights on floors 0 + 1 + 2 + 3 ??)

http://www.screwfix.com/search.do;jsessionid=BF2RQyJpPc6Hp2b1Qm2DK8vcCBrJ2SgvdzNcqzm5JQxhhF06LGM0!-1956597633?fh_search=wylex+mcb

Then there is the problem of having no Residual Current Device [This makes sure that all the electricity go in through the consumer unit on one wire comes out again on the other, and turn off it that is not true]

http://www.screwfix.com/p/wylex-63a-30ma-dp-rcd/82076

At the moment you probably have some loops of round cable that come out of the meter and into the consumer unit, as there will be a RCD between the two in future, you would need another set of these cables; something like this:
http://www.screwfix.com/search.do?fh_search=meter+tails&fh_view_size=20

I am not clear why you live and neutral needs to be 25mm - are you electrically heating the place?

I think the stuff about opening up all the connections is to make sure that the red (brown) wire is always the live (line) side of any "appliance" and the black (blue) wire is always the neutral (return) [The latter is really just another earth (ground) connection as the power station pushes out the electricity on a wire and uses the mass of the globe to act as the return to complete the circuit - a motor car with its rubber insulating tyres does something similar for its wiring within the chassis of the car].

There are situations where the cables could be "live" but the wrong colour, for example where the lighting cable makes its way over the ceiling and when it comes to (say) a bedroom light there has to be a length of cable dropping down to the switch next to the bedroom door, ignoring the bare earth wire, inside the cable there are two wires of different colours but both will be "live" when the switch is flicked on.
So it helps if the original electrician has sheathed the "wrong" colour with the appropriated coloured sheathing.

In addition to the above bits of hardware there is a need for extra bits of labelled tape, grommets, screws, wall plugs etc. call it £20 ?

This site, using the "new" brown blue and green/yellow wiring colours, illustrates the brown sheathing needed.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=House_Wiring_for_Beginners

When you have read and understood the requirements for the 17th Edition of the regulations, you will be in a better position to discuss your situation with the qualified electrician the legislation requires you to use.

As this is an HMO with ever increasing electricity prices, what arrangements are there to frustrate a tenant trying to steal your electricity?

DevCoder

That report is just rubbish.

1. You dont need to apply more recent regulations retrospectively.
2. The marking are probably just which cable is the switched live. You dont need to apply new colour wires to pre 2005 cables, You can just have dis-harmonised colours although there should be a label on the consumer unit to state as such.
3. You dont need RCD protection unless its a new install or there is new wiring in a special location (ie kitchen, bathroom or outside)
4. Equipotential bonding is not required by regulation unless its in the MI's for boiler side pipes. If its the condesate or prv discharge pipe then this would be platic anyway and certainly not connected to earth so pointless to bond.

88888

Thank you for your replies on this issue. Fortunately I did not pay for anything, indeed I was not actually given anything to pay for. I was given the impression though that anything that didn't comply or was installed prior to 2008 regs was not going to pass an EICR so that I would need to do the work to bring it up to standard. The only thing I was actually sent was the quotes I posted.

Owain_Moneysaver

88888 wrote: »

And second quote on landlord areas:

This installation is supplied via 1x WYLEX box with NO RCD WHATSOEVER
This WYLEX C.U. will be RCD protected by adding 1x 63 or 80 amps RCD outside the box, on outside enclosure and the related 25mm cables for N/L and 1x 16mm Green/Yellow for earth.
4x MCB are not complying for they are not the same make as box, therefore illegal.
Supply parts and replace 4x MCB with proper 4x type B Wylex MCBs

For a 2005 installation no RCD at all is strange; and mixing manufacturer's enclosures and MCBs mean they aren't type approved and are therefore noncomplaint to the relevant British Standard. That doesn't make them illegal, though.

Especially if that CU supplies any sockets or if the wiring is vulnerable to vandalism or damage, it would be advisable to replace the CU with a newer one with RCD protection.

There's also no mention of emergency lighting for escape routes.

However, what you don't have is an EICR and you may still need to obtain one, from an electrician who (a) will charge for the report and (b) won't make up spurious grounds for non-essential work like sleeving cables in brown and blue sleeving.

88888

Owain_Moneysaver wrote: »

For a 2005 installation no RCD at all is strange; and mixing manufacturer's enclosures and MCBs mean they aren't type approved and are therefore noncomplaint to the relevant British Standard. That doesn't make them illegal, though.

Especially if that CU supplies any sockets or if the wiring is vulnerable to vandalism or damage, it would be advisable to replace the CU with a newer one with RCD protection.

There's also no mention of emergency lighting for escape routes.

However, what you don't have is an EICR and you may still need to obtain one, from an electrician who (a) will charge for the report and (b) won't make up spurious grounds for non-essential work like sleeving cables in brown and blue sleeving.

Hmm. The electrician did know what he was doing but I think was under the impression that his clients know nothing.
The CU that had no RCD protection runs lighting in the common areas and the fire alarm panel. The lighting in the common areas are emergency lighting as they power on batteries in the event of a power cut, as does the fire panel.
Thanks for looking over this post and sharing what you know.

harryhound

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?18259-HMO-electrical-requirements

http://www.rla.org.uk/landlord/guides/responsibilities/electrical_inspections.shtml

http://www.esc.org.uk/uploads/tx_escvideolib/filedownload/landlords-Lft-May-2011_03.pdf

http://www.privatehousinginformation.co.uk/site/141.asp

Now tell us the HMO is in Scotland?!