EDF direct debit manipulation

steve-L

victor2 wrote: »

Couple of radical suggestions here that we should pay for our utilities as (or shortly after) we use them!
Makes perfect sense, not unlike buying petrol for your car, except you pay for that before you actually use it. Would teach people the need to budget for the seasons. The idea of charging the same amount each month to spread the winter costs over summer is probably how we got to the confusing mess we are in today.
Of course, you'll get the bleeding heart stories every winter of the people who can't afford to keep warm, but maybe we just have to toughen up and learn. Remember the days before central heating?

Yep, how weird that today its radical to pay for the coal when its delivered?
The utilities are acting more like banks than banks do nowadays?
Deciding how to smooth our bills and charge upfront to keep in credit.

Imagine if Amazon did the same......

Me : Hello I order a book and it's been delivered but you didn't charge the correct amount
Amazon: Well, you ordered 14 books in November this year so we debited your account for 14 books....
Me: But last November I was having an operation in hospital .. so I read a lot more than usual....
Amazon: Yes but we only charged you for 12..... as it was a different spending pattern... then you ordered 9 in December ....
Me: Yes, I bought them as Christmas presents....
Amazon: So... what's the problem....
Me: But you took £186 and the book cost £4.99
Amazon: Don't worry, if you order some more books it will even out the credit....
Me: But I don't want to..... I just had to buy a new car and I'm broke, I'm trying to economise.
Amazon: Ah... yes of course, that would be why you bought "Fixing up a banger" and last month you bought "How to survive on £10 a day".
Me: Erm.... yeah.....
Amazon: Well, see if you want to buy any of these other money saving books and we have some great deals on right now.... Investing in Gold has been discounted by 75%
Me: I just want to pay for what I actually buy......
Amazon: But then what will happen at XMAS....have you considered getting an Amazon credit card....
Me: I can hardly pay my bills as it is....
Amazon: We have some great book deals on debt consolidation
Me: No thanks I'll go and check MSE.....

Terrylw1

Its a very complicated business so its hard to get something like the suggested 1-2% interest rate implemented without by in from suppliers.

A lot of supplier calculation errors can be created by factors outside of their control e.g. 12 month forward forecast after a switch. Only regular incoming data corrects this and its never ideal until you have data covering each season, likely more than once. So, it would be possible in the current market for a previous supplier to mismanage an account causing their interest payout plus causing the new supplier to be trapped into also paying it.

It would really need a lot of thought and from my experience of the settlement market, I don't think the industry is ready for it. If the industry pushes to get settlement inline to make things more stable, perhaps it could be a logical next step.

It would also need some regulation covering who is at fault when it goes wrong. The SLC's can often be vague so it would lead to individual complaints with a far from supportive ombudsman.

If the suppliers want to do it, great, it favours the consumer. For regulation to force it, I think they would come unstuck with these types of arguments.

It makes sense though, I guess my concern is the data fed into the calculation. Look at EDF! They are operating without any fear of Ofgem in forcing the SLC's that already cover their issues.

It would also act as a motivator to correct the data.

In terms of the heating debate, perhaps we need to determine who this should apply to first. Surely, you don't mean the at risk groups such as the elderly or disabled? I guess back in "the good old days" they just suffered it and the illnesses & mortality rates that came with it...

Just_landed

victor2 wrote: »

But pick a point in time (like Spring), when many accounts have a debit balance. How much has the supplier loaned to its customers then?
That is the whole idea of paying by monthly direct debits. It is unfortunate that some suppliers have taken to swinging things in their favour by targetting a zero balance at a low point on the account balance "curve". That is the issue there has been much discussion and complaints about.

You can pick any point you want but within a couple of years you will be so far in front even after the two winter points / 1/4s they will be making money out of your credit balance. Don't forget I've been there done that.

:T

victor2

Just_landed wrote: »

You can pick any point you want but within a couple of years you will be so far in front even after the two winter points / 1/4s they will be making money out of your credit balance. Don't forget I've been there done that.

:T

Not really, if you manage it well enough. I'm there now and doing it.
My DD is a fraction below what my annual usage is tracking at. So the curve should be swinging in my favour with more time with a debit balance than a credit. I'm sure if EDF ever fix their systems they'll catch up and adjust the DD to a realistic monthly amount. Perhaps I'm benefitting from them knowing their system doesn't work, and readily accepting that what I say my DD should be is far more accurate than their figure from fantasy-land.

snowcat53

backfoot wrote: »

It seems to be evidence of a complete breach and beyond the year of being a customer.

If you recall, their 'bogus' defence to me is that until the Annual statement is produced they are not obliged to lay out a DD calculation.

Here we are guessing at what their change is which results in a increase of £55 per month,not far off 50% when you are already in credit. To quote a friend that's a ' sudden excessive hike'.

Is there still any mileage in a complaint regarding what they have done (or not done) even though they have conceded the value to you?

I have done some calculations.
Based on EdF's annual usage figs for the last 12m (to sept) cost on current tariff is £1521.
The initial credit balance at end Dec was rebated in full so no adjustment needed for that.
This would give a DD of 127. It has been 125.
The debit balance may be the princely sum of £21 in December, In other words the DD amount was fine.

But further, last year my mother also received additional credits (around Dec I think) for
warm home discount £114 and fuel support rebate of £43 - total 157. Which would give a credit balance at dec of 136.
SO... assuming these rebates are similar this year (?) one could argue
125 should have been reduced !

As suggested I will ask for a formal explanation of where the 178 figure came from.

backfoot

Well done. :T

Presumably you are going to do it in writing so that if they don't provide the calculation you can complain formally.

They can't argue against me that they only are obliged do it after a year and then not supply the breakdown to you.

Many posters will be interested to see how they derive their numbers and as we know the Regulations require it. You should already have been provided with it but continued failure when requested would be ridiculous.

snowcat53

Yes certainly in writing, and I will report back.

Do you happen to know how these warm home/fuel support discounts are calculated?

Gold_Rush

snowcat53 wrote: »

Good old EDF - they never get any better do they?

My mother's DD was put up from 125 to 180 in september despite being a little in credit. She hadnt noticed this so I investigated today.
The basis of this was an 'annual statement' This
1. used consumption for the last 12 months, (so far so good)
2. applied unknown factors to predict next 12 months use (less good) - works out as elec about same, gas up 5%
3 estimated costs, based on current (Fix 2012) tariff
This would give a figure of 130 per month, not 180. .

Her 'annual review' is due in December anyway and as the current tariff ends then it would seem sensible to leave changes to that point? We should know by that point what tariff she' ll be on after Fix for 2012 (if still with edf at all) and can work out costs and DD then.

So I rang to ask for an explanation

The rep tells me they work out the DD not on the estimated costs in the statement but on on standard tariff basis after December (this is not stated anywhere, so breaking SLC 27.14 imho). . So why not just review the DD in dec ? Oh we will anyway, but also in sept because this was more than 3 months away from it. (Triggered by a meter reader not the customer btw).

Why do they make it so complicated? DD should be costs spread over a year, and not continually changed by every new reading/bill, unless there are changes in tariff or expected consumption. .

I have to conclude they are manipulating the system to get interest free loans from the public.

Any chance of waking up Ofgem from their slumbers to do their job and enforce SLCs?

Hi Snowcat53
I thought I would share my views and facts about EDF.
Just received a letter telling my they are increasing my DD. I don't buy gas with them so it's not a huge bill by some standards.
But when I worked out the increase on my DD it amounted to 39% increase.
I called them and was told the increase was based on my usage!
When I pointed out I don't use gas so my electric usage should NOT go up in theory. In fact I also pointed out going on their usage stats on my last years bills for the same period etc my usage has clearly gone down!
She agreed!
(I changed a lot of my bulbs to LED and unplug things a little more these days etc)!

I was in credit by over £160 before my last bill and still over £18 in credit after the last bill. That's a lot of credit sitting in EDF's bank account making money for them when you add all the customer accounts credit balances together!!

So this is way above the 10.8% and is a complete rip-off IMO.
I have to point out the lady I spoke to was very honest in respect to not disagreeing with me at all. She in fact told me the system for working out usage "wasn't working very well" How long will she last!!

Now for the facts! They done this to me last year. If I didn't also at that time phone them and insist they reduce the DD I would leave.
My DD was reduced and I remained in credit with EDF ALL YEAR!!

I've told them if this happens again I will either stop the DD and pay them what I've actually used or leave.
I also told them their bills are very unclear compared to just about any other company. I have complained about this also a year ago. She told me they are changing how the bills look. Hopefully that will turn out to be an improvement.
Lets all leave EDF on mass if they do this to everyone again on the next bill review!!
PS. ofgem seem to be a complete waste of space.

Tommygun2000

Gold_Rush wrote: »

Hi Snowcat53
I thought I would share my views and facts about EDF.
Just received a letter telling my they are increasing my DD. I don't buy gas with them so it's not a huge bill by some standards.
But when I worked out the increase on my DD it amounted to 39% increase.
I called them and was told the increase was based on my usage!
When I pointed out I don't use gas so my electric usage should NOT go up in theory. In fact I also pointed out going on their usage stats on my last years bills for the same period etc my usage has clearly gone down!
She agreed!
(I changed a lot of my bulbs to LED and unplug things a little more these days etc)!

I was in credit by over £160 before my last bill and still over £18 in credit after the last bill. That's a lot of credit sitting in EDF's bank account making money for them when you add all the customer accounts credit balances together!!

So this is way above the 10.8% and is a complete rip-off IMO.
I have to point out the lady I spoke to was very honest in respect to not disagreeing with me at all. She in fact told me the system for working out usage "wasn't working very well" How long will she last!!

Now for the facts! They done this to me last year. If I didn't also at that time phone them and insist they reduce the DD I would leave.
My DD was reduced and I remained in credit with EDF ALL YEAR!!

I've told them if this happens again I will either stop the DD and pay them what I've actually used or leave.
I also told them their bills are very unclear compared to just about any other company. I have complained about this also a year ago. She told me they are changing how the bills look. Hopefully that will turn out to be an improvement.
Lets all leave EDF on mass if they do this to everyone again on the next bill review!!
PS. ofgem seem to be a complete waste of space.

You sound very unhappy with them, why dont you just swap to someone else?

[Deleted User]

I am probably one of the few who seemed to have had little trouble with EDF in fact my DD went down by £2.00 per month in September.Mind you I have always had a fairly good 'in credit balance' over the past few years as I like to have a good amount in there in case of a really cold snap in Jan/Feb I do need to keep my house at a reasonable tempreture as I have mobility problems and if I get cold my joints seize up and I cannot get about.
The only thing I have been wondering about is I have an EDF chap coming this Saturday to change my electric meter as apparently they are in the process of changing the old meter with the 5/6 dials for newer modals I am just hoping the newer ones won't mean an increase in my bills.I am fairly good about not wasting gas or elecric and have just had my November bill in and for dual fuel it amounts to £92.33 for 95 days which I don't think is too bad.Has anyone else had their meter changed recently at all and did it make much of a differance ?