Economy 10 and 3 phase - feasible or not? ..CONCLUSION: Yes but E7 simpler & cheaper

FAI

We are building a new house. There is no mains gas. We will have 3 phase electricity to run a ground source heat pump supplying hot water for underfloor heating and DHW. We want to run the property as cheaply as possible. For this reason we would like to use Economy 10, but actually finding out how to do this (suppliers) and what it would cost is not straightforward. So far my research keeps hitting brick walls.
E.On cannot give me any tariffs, and research I have done leads me to believe they use Heatwise meters which physically turn on and off the heating circuits, which is not what we want.
EDF documentation states that they will not put new customers onto Economy 10 and a Q&A reply states that they do not do Economy 10 with 3 phase.
I know that I can buy a dual tariff 3 phase meter.
Does anyone know whether it is possible to get any supplier to provide Economy 10 to a 3 phase property? I would be grateful for any help. Thank you.

HappyMJ

FAI wrote: »

We are building a new house. There is no mains gas. We will have 3 phase electricity to run a ground source heat pump supplying hot water for underfloor heating and DHW. We want to run the property as cheaply as possible. For this reason we would like to use Economy 10, but actually finding out how to do this (suppliers) and what it would cost is not straightforward. So far my research keeps hitting brick walls.
E.On cannot give me any tariffs, and research I have done leads me to believe they use Heatmiser meters which physically turn on and off the heating circuits, which is not what we want.
EDF documentation states that they will not put new customers onto Economy 10 and a Q&A reply states that they do not do Economy 10 with 3 phase.
I know that I can buy a dual tariff 3 phase meter.
Does anyone know whether it is possible to get any supplier to provide Economy 10 to a 3 phase property? I would be grateful for any help. Thank you.

Economy 10 is not very economic. In fact it is more expensive than standard rate electricity. Put your estimated figures into a calculator and work out the cost of a restricted hours supply/E10 tariff then go onto a comparison site and put the sum of the day rate, the night rate and the E10 heat rate and compare that to standard rate electricity deals. You will find that a standard rate direct debit online managed deal will be cheaper than any E10 tariff available and you can use the heating a any time of the day.

FAI

Thank you HappyMJ for your reply.
I have already done what you suggest. It all depends on whether your house is designed to take a resonably high percentage of it's electricity demand during the low cost periods.
I have done the calculations today using EDF October 2012 tariffs.
Using 10,000kwhours per annum with 60% overnight / low rate usage cost £1505 with standard single rate tarrif, £1208 with Economy 10 and £1132 with economy 7.
The reason for asking the question about (and preference for)economy 10 is that with an additional 3 hours per day available at the low rate, the estimated %low rate usage would increase from 60% (or whatever rate is achieved with economy 7).

john1

I live in the East Midlands have 3 phase supplied domestic e10 tariff from e-on called Heatwise. .

Tariff is not on e-on site as Heatwise only avaliable in EM area I understand.

Search Heatwise on this forum and you will come across a few posts.


Your comment "Heatmiser meters which physically turn on and off the heating circuits, which is not what we want".
E10 is a restricted hours tariff only 10 hrs out of 24 the supply is available i.e. 1300-1600 2000-2200 and 0200-0700 so it may not be for you. However with suitable switching / control circuits, the normal 24 hr tariff could be in used in conjunction with e10 . A suitable qualified industrial electrician (not a domestic sparks ) would be able provide a safe and reliable control unit for you, but not cheap.

FAI

Thank you John1 for your helpful reply.

Do you know how I can speak to anyone at E.on who knows anything? I spoke to customer services today, who knew less that I. Or how can I get a person called Helena who posts on this site to reply?
Are you able to tell me whether Heatwise means that the heating appliance is only live during the relevant 10 hours? I have read that this is the case, and am not keen on this.
Thank you.

Richie-from-the-Boro

FAI'

Make a new header asking your questions for the Attn of E.ON Company Representative Helena. Last here at 10am [ish] today.

FAI

john1 wrote: »

E10 is a restricted hours tariff only 10 hrs out of 24 the supply is available i.e. 1300-1600 2000-2200 and 0200-0700 so it may not be for you. However with suitable switching / control circuits, the normal 24 hr tariff could be in used in conjunction with e10 . A suitable qualified industrial electrician (not a domestic sparks ) would be able provide a safe and reliable control unit for you, but not cheap.

I understand and agree with what you say. This is why I am trying to work out how to actually get E10 (with 3 phase), as theoretically it will be the most cost effective for our new build.
If I cannot find anyone who will provide it - I live near Reading, Berks - than I will have to go for Economy 7.
Thank you very much for your help.

Terrylw1

A few things to point out:

1 - metering is still regional based on the old board regions. This means you can only have meters that are available to your region. So, if you are in the East Midlands you can have Heatwise but in other regions it will be something different e.g. Superdeal in the old northern region, Warmwise in the old SWEB, etc. Then there are specific E10's on top of this.

2 - E10's are the versions (such as Heatwise & the above) were all set up by regional boards prior to deregulation, hence the switching times differ. Meters introduced to regions later have the switching times that the suppliers decided they wanted.

3 - there are different types of E10 a) 3 rate dual MPAN Day, Night & Heat b) 2 rate single MPAN Day & Night which are like E7 but have their Night rates spread across the day and c) the variations on E10 like those mentioned above. For instance, Warmwise has 4 rates which include a 2 tier Heat rate and also have bank holiday settings.

Single MPAN E10's have been available in every region so any ex regional supplier can handle them, but do they want them?

So, you need to first look up your region as that decides what you are allowed.

Then you need to weigh up the alternative meters and how that affects your prices. This is the hard part as suppliers try to discourage your business. Ofgem sadly are doing nothing to prevent this behaviour just because suppliers want to minimise the tariffs they offer.

The 3 phase part is also a problem for you. To be able to have this, the meter must have a Meter Timeswitch Class (MTC) in the industries Market Domain Data (MDD) set to 3 Phase. If not, the supplier can't register your supply number properly. Now, if the Meter Operator can fit a 3 phase meter, it will work, but this data problem will cause you some hassles with switching as each supplier won't be able to register you properly...so it takes someone to fudge it through and leave it wrong.

If you confirm your region and if your use will be domestic, I could check this part for you and post available meters.

In terms of Eon, I suggest you try Eon Malc who seems to post more on meters. Malc may be constrained by his company in his response though in terms of meters they don't want.

john1

FAI yes heatwise is a 10 out of 24 hr supply only and specifically designed for Storage heating Not exactly what you require. You could try speaking with e-on business team 0845 302 4315 as they have possibly more knowledge of 3 phase supplies and services. When I had my initial installation Powergen as it was then had a specialist regional engineering team to advise and if necessary install the equipment. With reorganisation I suspect you will have to search hard to find necessary qualified support but you could start with http://www.westernpower.co.uk/ .who may be able to help

FAI

Terrylw1 wrote: »

If you confirm your region and if your use will be domestic, I could check this part for you and post available meters.

What a brilliant reply Terrylw1! Thank you so much.
I am at RG10 post code (Wargrave, Berkshire). Use is domestic. I would be very grateful to know available meters.
We already have a "temporary" 3 phase meter installed by SSE (Scottish & Southern) as a "commercial supply" during the new build. We are at first fix stage and now need to get the correct 3 phase domestic meter installed in the house - hence the need to finalise multi (or single) rate tarrif.

albyota

Hi, can I ask what size is the house you are building, total square meterage, and is there any particular reason why you have chosen GSHP as opposed to ASHP, as you can get a 3 phase ASHP too.