Benefits under JSA sanction or disallowance & OU study

dag_2

Hi, I'm not sure whether to put this under the "Benefits" section or the "Jobseeking" section.

I've been studying with the Open University. I'm currently doing 90 points-worth of courses simultaneously. And I'm currently behind.

But I'm also unemployed, and am signing every two weeks. I've clocked up about 11 months so far.

Because I'm studying, my jobhunting activity tends to happen in bursts - if I'm currently up to date with my college work, then I put a lot of effort into looking for a job and doing other things that will improve my general employability (besides studying). But when I feel like I'm falling behind on college work, then jobhunting becomes a much lower priority. Obviously I'm not keen to start work at a point when I'm behind on college work.

My attitude is that if I had a job which I thought might take my career places, then I'd still want to carry on studying, but I might only enrol on 30 or a maximum of 60 points at any one time, especially if the job was full-time. However, if I'm unemployed, then I might as well make the best use of my time possible, and take on some extra courses, so that I can get my qualification earlier.

Having said that, I never want to have to drop out of a course I've already started, if I can help it. I think there's no point in taking a low-grade immediate-start job if I think I'm going to fall even further behind, but I might not necessarily want to participate in New Deal or other activities that Jobcentre Plus organise. So I think I need to be prepared for the risk of a JSA sanction or disallowance, or possibly even considering signing off from time to time.

My question is, if this were to happen, how would it affect my housing benefit and council tax benefit?

Is it possible to sign every two weeks and still get your stamp paid, even if you refuse to participate in activities such as New Deal? Or would this be grounds for a "disallowance"?

I understand that "sanctions" don't affect your stamp, but "disallowances" do - is that correct?

What's the difference between a "disallowance" and a "sanction"? What other types of "labour market decision" might Jobcentre Plus make?

Once one of these decisions is applied, how do you go about getting JSA again at a later date? And is it possible to continue to get housing benefit throughout the whole period? If so, then how do you go about doing it?

Sorry if I've already asked similar questions - thanks in advance for your answers.

dag_2

Hi.

I've been to the CAB and the LA. The CAB didn't really tell me anything that I didn't already know. The local authority were a bit more helpful, though - the general advice seems to be that it's best to try to comply with the JSA formalities as best as I can.

It seems that if have a sanction imposed on my JSA, or if my JSA is stopped for any other reason - even if, perhaps, I forget to turn up to my fortnightly signing - then it's possible that my housing benefit may be suspended as a result. However, provided that I make contact with the local authority within one month to confirm that I still have no other savings and income, then my housing benefit and council tax benefit will continue to be paid as before, with no break in entitlement.

On the other hand, if I voluntarily choose to drop out of the JSA system and sign off, then it still may be possible to get housing benefit, but the formalities become a lot more complicated, and they will need to ask many more questions.

You see, I was a bit concerned about being put on a "New Deal" scheme after 18 months - and I thought I might be able to get around it by signing off and then making a new claim, to reset the "clock". I realise that there are linking rules, however - but would I be right in thinking that the clock is reset if you stay signed off for three months or more?

The other thing I was worried about was the Jobseeker Mandatory Activity, which is a three day course they put people on when they have been unemployed for six months. Generally speaking, if you don't do something that Jobcentre Plus asks you to do, then only your JSA will be affected, and you should still get housing benefit. However, Jobseeker Mandatory Activity is the exception to this rule - if you fail to do the JMA, then your housing benefit will be stopped for a week until you do.

So in the event that they threaten to put me on another JMA close to my exams, then perhaps I really will be better off withdrawing my claim for JSA completely, so as to remove the risk of having a sanction imposed on my housing benefit. Is anyone able to comment on this?

Thanks in advance of your replies.

dmg24

Hi dag,

I managed to study a distance learning degree (officially only 'part time') and qualify for Housing Benefit. HB should be concerned with your income (or lack of it) rather than what you are doing with your time.

With regard to JSA, though I was eligible (I was studying for less points, I would be surprised if you would be allowed to claimed whilst studying towards 90 points), I chose not to claim because it was just too much hassle combining that with my studies.

I'm not sure what happens about stamp to be honest, hopefully someone else will be along who knows.

Best of luck x

dag_2

With regard to JSA, though I was eligible (I was studying for less points, I would be surprised if you would be allowed to claimed whilst studying towards 90 points), I chose not to claim because it was just too much hassle combining that with my studies.

Thanks for that, the fact that it didn't affect your housing benefit reassures me. Can I ask what formalities you had to go through, though? How did you prove you didn't have savings or an income? Were you asked why you weren't claiming JSA - and if so, how frequently?

As for Jobseeker Mandatory Activity - from:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/draft/em/uksidem_0110735978_en.pdf

Non-attendance or non-completion of any part of the JMA course or follow-up interviews could result in loss of benefit, including Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit, for one week. The sanction may be applied each and every time the customer fails to comply with the JMA programme.

Eeek!

However, it appears that you only get put on JMA once during your JSA award, when you hit six months. Once you've cleared six months and your JMA, you're at absolutely no risk of being put on JMA again, and are therefore at no risk of having a sanction applied to housing benefit or council tax benefit, unless (a) you sign off for three months then sign on again, or (b) they change the law.

I'm very nervous about this though. Can anyone confirm if I've got this right? Has anyone ever had a housing benefit sanction imposed as a result of JMA?

If a decision is taken to impose a sanction on housing benefit as a result of JMA non-attendance, then is it possible to circumvent it by withdrawing your Jobseeker's Allowance claim? Alternatively, has anyone ever successfully got a Discretionary Housing Payment in these circumstances?

If not, then I guess that in future, I'm going to have to watch the calendar. If I'm ever going to hit six months unemployment at a point which is very close to the deadlines of important assignments, then I'll have to withdraw my JSA claim and go onto housing benefit alone, then resubmit my JSA claim once the deadlines have passed, dealing with all the necessary formalities that arise as a result. My Jobseeker's Allowance pales into insignificance beside my rent, so it's far better to go without Jobseeker's Allowance completely than run the risk of a Housing Benefit sanction.

If anyone knows anyone who has experienced Jobseeker Mandatory Activity problems, I'd be really grateful to hear about it. Thanks.

ukdickie31

Hi

If you are on Jobseeker Mandatory Activity, it's just that. If you can't do what the Jobcentre expect, then your case will be referred to the decision makers to decide upon any sanction that may (or may not) be appropriate, given the circumstances leading to the referral.

Jobseekers Allowance is just that. An allowance for Jobseekers. By signing the declaration every time you sign on, you are declaring that you are activiely seeking work, willing and able to work and have reported any changes in your circumstances.

It's not called training seekers allowance or rent rebate seekers allowance

dag_2

Thanks, yeah you have a point. It says "non-attendance or non-completion ... could result" - not "will result" - and it says "the sanction may be applied" - not "will be applied".

Well I guess that's not so bad then. Of course, I can't say I'm entirely happy when benefits that were previously considered to be "entitlements" start becoming discretionary - after all, it's the usual suspects who lose out.

But on the other hand, I'm fairly eloquent, I've got the gift of the gab - I used to work in telemarketing - so I should be able to blag it. The fact that I'm not black, and not a Muslim or Arab, probably helps too.

(first they came ...)

ukdickie31

The fact that I'm not black, and not a Muslim or Arab, probably helps too.

Why should that help ?

peter999

dag wrote: »

Thanks, yeah you have a point. It says "non-attendance or non-completion ... could result" - not "will result" - and it says "the sanction may be applied" - not "will be applied".

It you try to be too smart, you'll probably come a cropper.
It may say could, but it will lead to "problems" if you don't take part.

If put on one of these JSA schemes, maybe just work your OU course around it.

Stopping/starting your JSA claim may be possibility if you have money to support yourself. Stopping JSA claim may impact your HB claim.

peter999

dmg24

It is very difficult to prove that you have no income!

I explained to them that I was living off my credit card (true!), and just provided them with my current account and credit card statements.

The way I think I got around it was to provide all the information that I could, and then just state that I was willing to answer any other questions that they may have ... they didn't ask anything else! x

dag_2

The fact that I'm not black, and not a Muslim or Arab, probably helps too.

Why should that help ?

The point I'm trying to make is that relying on discretionary benefits is a bad idea if you can possibly avoid it.

When benefits are discretionary, there's evidence that the people who are most often ruled against are those from ethnic minorities, or those who are disadvantaged in other ways. It stinks, but something really radical needs to happen if we're going to change this.

But that's outside the scope of this thread.

I realise that there are many people who are worse off than me - to some extent I've still got something of a family safety net to fall back on. However, I don't want to hit upon that net more than really necessary.

So, what if I get sent on a future JMA course, and it's too close to an exam or a coursework deadline? Should I do a no-show? The fact that I stand a good chance of "getting away with it" doesn't mean that it's a good idea to run the risk in the first place.

The whole point of this thread is that I think you might be able to limit those risks by voluntarily withdrawing from JSA - and I'm trying to find out how.

dmg says

It is very difficult to prove that you have no income!

I explained to them that I was living off my credit card (true!), and just provided them with my current account and credit card statements.

Yes, thanks for that, that's what I was mainly worried about.

Income support and income-based JSA are "passport" benefits - once you qualify, you also qualify for your full eligible rent housing benefit and council tax benefit, plus free prescriptions and what-have-you - the reason being that the "system" assumes you're poor if you qualify for one of these benefits.

You'd have thought that in order to get income-based JSA, you'd need to prove that you have no income - and that whatever proof you do offer would therefore also be acceptabe for housing benefit.

However, this appears not to be the case. The standard of evidence of income and savings required for income support and income-based JSA seems to be much lower than the standard required for housing benefit. I don't remember ever having to show my bank statements to anyone from the DWP - all I can remember is that I phoned them up once and said "I have no savings", and they appeared to believe me, and my JSA claim went through! That was that! No forms or documents at all! So why is housing benefit different?

That said, I can understand the way the system "thinks". The system thinks that if you're really poor, you'd be trying to get income support or income-based JSA. If you're not trying to get IS or IBJSA, then it probably means that you're not really that poor, and perhaps you've got loads of money washing around. Which is why you have to jump through several hoops to prove that this is not the case.

There have been times in the past when I've done low-paid casual work and got some housing benefit. The rigmarole of having to pop in every four weeks with documentation - and wait for hours in the queue when you're there - was a pain in the bum. I was hoping to avoid that if possible.

one more question ....

Anyway - here's my last major question on this one for dmg24. I'm aware that housing benefit awards for people who aren't on a "passport" benefit usually get reassessed once a year or so. Did you find that you had to make contact with the local authority any more frequently than that? If so, roughly how often?

And what did you have to do? Did you have to pop in with forms, or were they happy to take your word over the phone?

Thanks.

dag_2

peter says

It you try to be too smart, you'll probably come a cropper.

Thanks again for that, there's one other point I should have made earlier - going back to what ukdickie said earlier ....

If you are on Jobseeker Mandatory Activity, it's just that. If you can't do what the Jobcentre expect, then your case will be referred to the decision makers to decide upon any sanction that may (or may not) be appropriate, given the circumstances leading to the referral.

The thing is .... I believe that when we we have a poor relief system - or even a criminal justice system, for that matter - which is based too heavily on discretion, rather than very strict prescriptive rules, then it's at risk of cronyism. If a system is at risk of cronyism, then it's also at risk of racism. Indeed, apparent racism is often one of the most obvious manifestations of cronyism.

And I believe that our current government is probably intelligent enough to realise this. The opposition is probably intelligent enough to realise it too.

For that reason, I tend to doubt any suggestion that any part of the benefits or justice system is totally discretionary, unless I can find "straight from the horse's mouth" evidence to support this (ie, from a .gov.uk domain). I tend to assume that prescriptive rules exist somewhere, even though I might not know what those rules are.

I have found a parliamentary debate where Mr Boswell and Danny Alexander raises the question of whether they've really understood correctly about housing benefit sanctions for JMA. However, Mr Plaskitt didn't actually answer the question. Typical, eh? :rolleyes:

Safeguards are already in place to ensure that those who have good cause for failing to participate will not be sanctioned.

Hmm.

Still - I understand it's a two-year pilot. I guess it expires at the end of 2007, and the circumstances under which people are put on JMA are unlikely to happen to me again before the end of the pilot period. By this time, it might either be dropped, or the rules will be made a bit clearer.

If it wasn't for the peculiar circumstances of the JMA pilot, then I would never have thought that you might ever be better off by voluntarily dropping out of the JSA system. Thanks for all the responses so far.