Got caught doing the old sitting in FC on overcrowded train trick

rob4001

Was on First Capital Connect route from Farringdon-Gatwick this morning. This train is completely rammed (and i mean completely), so i thought i'll go into the First Class section for the 1km trip to Blackfriars (where everyone gets off) and then just sit in the normal part of the train. Incidentely the regular seats are identical to the First Class ones anyway.

No exaggeration, 15 seconds after sitting down an inspector jumps out of the crowd and wants to see my ticket. He's already talking about fines. I said, i'll just go into the regular bit if he wants. Too late, i'm already down for a fine and there's no getting out of it. Then there is about 20 mins of "debate".

So i eventually cough up and i want to appeal, i realise ultimately i am probably in the wrong by the letter of the law, but i don't care, i didn't think i was being unreasonable and i thought the guy showed a disgusting lack of awareness.

So are there any regulations or such that i can point to when writing my appeal? In fact am i even likely to get off?

Running_On_Empty

So, you were in a first class seat without a first class ticket, hmm?

wishiwasarichgirl

you want a less rammed carriage, you pay the first class prices. end of.

rob4001

If they sell me a ticket for a service and i can't fit on the train then they have breached the contract and not me.

That's the way i see it.

thelawnet

rob4001 wrote: »

If they sell me a ticket for a service and i can't fit on the train then they have breached the contract and not me.

That's the way i see it.

good luck with that....
Fact is you had a ticket to travel from a to b, not a ticket for any particular service. I daresay you could have made a reservation, but that woumd have been inconvenient so you didn't....

DUTR

rob4001 wrote: »

If they sell me a ticket for a service and i can't fit on the train then they have breached the contract and not me.

That's the way i see it.

The courts wouldn't see it that way, if you were just standing in FC, then I think you would have been ok, taking the seat was the error, but I know what you mean about the rammed trains, I remember having to go to a meeting the SC was packed and I sat in FC until the train got to Coventry from Birmingham then I would have gone into SC, anyways whilst seated I get offered breakfast :T, I declined.
Good luck with the appeal but I don't hold much confidence in success

rob4001

You can't make a reservation. It's a commuter train more like an underground train than a Virgin West Coast train. There's no first class carriage...There's about 10 "first class" chairs at the end of some carriages which are completely identical to every other chair in on the train.

I have been on many services where ticket inspectors have accepted the overcrowding argument before. Given this precedent and this fact that i had only been in the seat ~15 seconds and offered to leave i still consider the inspectors actions completely unreasonable.

Actually you know, i might just start getting the Gatwick Express instead. Vote with your feet and all.

redux

rob4001 wrote: »

... , so i thought i'll go into the First Class section for the 1km trip to Blackfriars (where everyone gets off) and then just sit in the normal part of the train.

Walking the length of a carriage takes a minute or two, about the same as the train would take to travel that kilometre

Why sit down at all? Perhaps if you had been walking through the carriage you wouldn't have had a problem

timbo58

The problem is:
a) the 1st class fare payers have no doubt complained vociferously to the ToC about just this sort of 'fare evasion', there are lots of times where those who've actually paid the 1st class fare can't then get a seat as STD ticketholders are using the seats IME.

b) when someone is caught without having paid the fare* then clearly the ticket inspector has to do something about this, they can't just let people off.
It has nothing to do with the fact you offered to leave and had only been there for 15 seconds: had the TI not challenged you then it's fair to argue you would not have left.

On busier trains I would fully expect the ticketing staff to target just this sort of seat blocking and fare evasion, I am only surprised you see it as such a shock.

*a passenger with a std ticket occupying first class accom has not paid the fare, not even part of it, this is a well known test case dating to 1948 IIRC?

In theory anyone even standing in that part of a train designated as 1st class (even the vestibules) is liable to be PF'd (not a fine btw only courts can issue fines) or asked to leave, although this is often ignored by staff as impractical.

A ticket is evidence of a contract to get you from A to B, it is not a contract the guarantees you even getting onto the train let alone to guarantee a seat.
If you would prefer to be guaranteed a seat consider the scenario:

How many trains do you get on regularly that have a seat 'free' for your ticket type (ie not 1st class or reserved)? are you prepared to wait for several full trains to have passed before you can get onto one?

Remember the tracks are at capacity, the rolling stock also for the peak periods which become ever longer, trains cannot be added to without infrastructure (platform length etc etc) being taken into account at the very least.

This is the problem and is ironically why fares are so much higher at peak (a crude method of damping down demand).

When compulsory seatbelts on trains were mooted a few years ago it was quickly realised that this would mean compulsory reservations, this destroys one of the best aspects of rail travel: the ability to turn up & go without pre planning & with a vast amount of flexibility.

What about abroad: I'm sure the trains are much better there?

The French fine you for not reserving in the peak hours on some trains (10 euro?) so not only do you stand, you pay extra for that too!
The Japanese employ staff to shove you bodily onto peak trains regardless of designed capacity.

A large 8 car conventional HST years ago had a capacity of 512 seats, there are 2 seats which could realistically be absolutely guaranteed on that train for particular persons: both were/are in the leading drivers compartment.

It's not that I or anyone else on this thread are unsympathetic to your plight, however it's a case of 'realism' there's no point in us all saying 'appeal' 'you're absolutely right' when this problem occurs daily and opens a can of worms every time.

brightonman123

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4265867

prowla

redux wrote: »

Walking the length of a carriage takes a minute or two, about the same as the train would take to travel that kilometre

It might take a bit longer if the train was full or people standing up...