Solar panels

Johnkg

paulmapp8306 wrote: »

Secondly - and more importantly - FITs are not a fixed as you think - whatever you have been told. Speak to the power companies and they hate them. They are not binding (at least as far as their concerned) and they have plans to reduce them even from existing installations, in the not to distant future. The only possible exception is if you stay with the same power company for your supply for the life of the panels...

This is bad news for anyone who has already bought PV Panels. Do you have any non-anecdotal evidence that the Goverment/Energy Companies are going to renege on the 25 year deal?

southcoastrgi

Wait for the Green Deal to kick in

paulmapp8306

Johnkg wrote: »

This is bad news for anyone who has already bought PV Panels. Do you have any non-anecdotal evidence that the Goverment/Energy Companies are going to renege on the 25 year deal?

The government cant afford to sub much more, and the energy companies are only doing it because the government forced them too. The energy companies have already won that fight and are reducing FITs every six months - already down to 15.44p. once there down they will reduce FITs for existing customers if they can get away with it. The most likely route is when people want to change suppliers, they wont be offered FITs as high as currently available. The only way to keep the existing high FITs is not to change company - and it may even stretch to new deals from your existing supplier.

If that happens - you "could" keep your existing rates but would be forced to stay with your existing supplier, on their higher standard rate for the units you buy from them.

They could also insist on duel metering as well as their not keen on the "estimated" values.

The informaton has come from 2 people I know at energy companies (one with EDF and one with NPower). I am also working for the renewable energy sector now (having left the forces recently), but on the windfarms - but its a constant subject that comes up at work. It is only anecdotal though, so maybe it wont happen. General thoughts in the industry are that it will though - its just a matter of time.

The answer is to wait for Green Deal. you pay for the panels, but not up front. its taken from the savings you make - so your never going to pay more for your electric than you do with no panels even if FITs are low. You will save of course, because any energy you use during daylight hours will be (partly at least) generated by yourself - and there will still be FITs, just at a lower rate than energy costs - its the only way the energy companies can support it. This may take longer to pay for the panels - but as you dont pay anything up front its probably the way to go.

Those who already have panels wont like it - BUT they will have had a fair run with very generous FITs, so payback periods wont be extended too much.

Innys

As usual, the previous poster is talking out of their rear end.

I have today spoken to my sister's stepson who happens to work for a PV installer. They have confirmed that a current average installation costs around £7k - not the £12k to £15k posted by you know who. My previous link to EON and Southern Electric confirms this. I note the "technician" has not made a comment on this, presumably because they know they have been rumbled.

My sister's stepson also stated that FIT rates, for those that have already signed up, cannot change, by law. If a future Government tried to reduce those rates, they would face a barrage of legal action.

Further such actions would not, principally, come from Joe Public. They would instead, come from companies like British Gas, NPower, EDF, Eon and Southern Electric who have installed panels for free on householders' roofs in return for receipt of the FITs. Such multinationals will have armies of in-house lawyers who will make the Government's life a misery. Any future Government will know they are on a hiding to nothing and so simply not go there.

In addition, let me for one moment, humour "our friend" and agree that FITs will not change provided one doesn't change electricity supplier. So what? I've done that already - switch from one supplier to another after installation of my panels. What effect did it have? None. The first supplier pays my FITs at the original rate and the second bills me for my electricity - plus gas usage. Neither knows the identity or existence of the other - they don't need to know, it's not their business. And the problem with this arrangement is..................?

I have no issue with people deciding PVs are not for them. What I do have a problem is with MSE posters spreading deliberate misinformation. It is not the reason this site was set up and the sooner they choose to spread their lies elsewhere, the better.

paulmapp8306

Innys wrote: »

As usual, the previous poster is talking out of their rear end.

I have today spoken to my sister's stepson who happens to work for a PV installer. They have confirmed that a current average installation costs around £7k - not the £12k to £15k posted by you know who. My previous link to EON and Southern Electric confirms this. I note the "technician" has not made a comment on this, presumably because they know they have been rumbled.

My sister's stepson also stated that FIT rates, for those that have already signed up, cannot change, by law. If a future Government tried to reduce those rates, they would face a barrage of legal action.

Further such actions would not, principally, come from Joe Public. They would instead, come from companies like British Gas, NPower, EDF, Eon and Southern Electric who have installed panels for free on householders' roofs in return for receipt of the FITs. Such multinationals will have armies of in-house lawyers who will make the Government's life a misery. Any future Government will know they are on a hiding to nothing and so simply not go there.

In addition, let me for one moment, humour "our friend" and agree that FITs will not change provided one doesn't change electricity supplier. So what? I've done that already - switch from one supplier to another after installation of my panels. What effect did it have? None. The first supplier pays my FITs at the original rate and the second bills me for my electricity - plus gas usage. Neither knows the identity or existence of the other - they don't need to know, it's not their business. And the problem with this arrangement is..................?

I have no issue with people deciding PVs are not for them. What I do have a problem is with MSE posters spreading deliberate misinformation. It is not the reason this site was set up and the sooner they choose to spread their lies elsewhere, the better.

Sigh.

1st - I have already addressed the cost of an installation if you'd care to read things correctly. Ive said I got that wrong and prices have changed since my main research some 6 months ago, and that £7,600 is the average install at present. i dont mind admitting im wrong when I get things wrong.

2nd - FITs are not paid by the government but by the power companies. Its them that will change things (if at all possible), and the government can do nothing about it. You have no legal agreement with the power companies. If the government agreed to pay the FITs for existing customers then that would be fine. Not sure that would happen though. Big companies tend to get what they want. Most companies that have fitted free panels are nothing to do with power companies. Its these very power companies you say will complain that WANT the FITs reduced.

If I have that wrong, and it is the government paying FITs then absolutely brilliant. However, that is not how I understand it - and if true why would the Power companies be trying to get FITs reduced (and quickly) because they cant afford to pay them?

3rd. Im happy that you can change you supplier without changing who you supply to. Thats not something I was aware you could do and its a good thing.


AAAnyway - we really have to stop this back and forth. ultimately what happens with existing users if mute when it comes to new installations - which is what the thread is actually about. What you cant argue is that even with the £7k (ish) cost of a new install, with FITs currently at 15.44p per unit the payback time is around 17 years for most installs which is the original information given. Regardless of what either I or INNYS say - that is not financially workable unless you have the money sat doing nothing and you want a long term energy plan.

Innys

paulmapp8306 wrote: »

Sigh.

1st - I have already addressed the cost of an installation if you'd care to read things correctly. Ive said I got that wrong and prices have changed since my main research some 6 months ago, and that £7,600 is the average install at present. i dont mind admitting im wrong when I get things wrong.

2nd - FITs are not paid by the government but by the power companies. Its them that will change things (if at all possible), and the government can do nothing about it. You have no legal agreement with the power companies. If the government agreed to pay the FITs for existing customers then that would be fine. Not sure that would happen though. Big companies tend to get what they want. Most companies that have fitted free panels are nothing to do with power companies. Its these very power companies you say will complain that WANT the FITs reduced.

If I have that wrong, and it is the government paying FITs then absolutely brilliant. However, that is not how I understand it - and if true why would the Power companies be trying to get FITs reduced (and quickly) because they cant afford to pay them?

3rd. Im happy that you can change you supplier without changing who you supply to. Thats not something I was aware you could do and its a good thing.


AAAnyway - we really have to stop this back and forth. ultimately what happens with existing users if mute when it comes to new installations - which is what the thread is actually about. What you cant argue is that even with the £7k (ish) cost of a new install, with FITs currently at 15.44p per unit the payback time is around 17 years for most installs which is the original information given. Regardless of what either I or INNYS say - that is not financially workable unless you have the money sat doing nothing and you want a long term energy plan.

Firstly, let me apologise for not reading your post #18 correctly. At least we now agree on the current total cost of installing a typical PV array.

Sadly, we still don't agree on much else.

I can, and do argue with your assertion that the payback time is currently 17 years. As per my post #20, it is far less. If you bothered to follow the links, you would see two energy companies are quoting payback periods much closer to the 11 years I suggested than your 17 years, using the current FIT rates. Can you provide a similar link to an independent website where states the payback period is 17 years?

Further, I do not agree that it is energy companies who are ultimately responsible for paying the FITs. Remember, this is a government initiative. If that is correct, why would the energy companies be able to control the prices of FITs? Plus, why if energy companies are responsible for paying FITs, why is the rate the same, whichever company you are registered with?

The truth is the Government sets the FIT rate and the energy company acts as the go between the Government and the householder. The energy company pays the householder and is reimbursed by the Government. They couldn't care less what the FIT rate is - they aren't picking up the tab.

You state that the power companies are getting FITs reduced because they can't afford to pay them. Well, in fact it is the Government who are reducing FIT rates for precisely the same reason. However, as I've already explained, at the same time the cost of PV installations are going down so the net effect on payback period is pretty much neutral.

As the current payback period is 11 years, in line with the EON/Southern Electric links I have posted, I would suggest that a new PV installation is still financially worthwhile.

However, this is the current position. As the Government keeps cutting FIT rates, there will come a time when the cost of PV installations starts going up. This is because those who can afford a PV installation will have had one installed and the availabel market will shrink. This will reduce demand and, therefore, increase prices, reducing demand further and so on and so on. So, if you are considering a PV installation and delay, it could end up costing you more.

What I find most irritating, though, is you have come on here claiming to know much about the subject when in fact, you know next to nothing. You claim to have researched the subject when I, as someone who has first hand experience of PVs, seems to have a lot more knowledge that you do, even though I have done limited research.

Ordinarily, it wouldn't bother me. In this case, though, your views may affect other MSErs opinion to their detriment and that isn't right. I have received a lot of useful information on this website from people who know better. It is one of the reasons this website was set up.

Fairwinds

skivenov wrote: »

Also got to factor in you'll need your roof retiled at the end of their useful life.

Why would you need your roof retiled?

Innys

GordonD wrote: »

Why would you need your roof retiled?

You wouldn't. That posting is wrong. I noted it earlier but couldn't be bothered to point it out.

The sun's UV rays have an adverse impact on pretty much everything on the Earth's surface. By obscuring some roof tiles with PV panels, you would, if anything, increase the life of those tiles.

The worst that would be needed was reinstatement of the tiles which had to be removed to install the panels' supporting brackets - a cost of a couple of hundred quid at the most.

Fairwinds

paulmapp8306 wrote: »

If that happens - you "could" keep your existing rates but would be forced to stay with your existing supplier, on their higher standard rate for the units you buy from them.

More rubbish - and really proving further you don't know what your talking about.

Who you use to supply your electricity and who you have your FIT arrangement with don't have to be the same.

I signed up to FIT with EON and have already moved my supply to EDF - there is no real reason to move FIT company and it certainly doesn't mean you have to stick with your FIT company for supply - they are independent

As others have also tried to say Tarriffs are fixed fr 25 years and index linked -my pay back period ( on the 21p rate) is 7 years, but we are already ahead of estimated figures

Nine_Lives

Hell fire, didn't think my question would've caused all this.