Smart Box Tracker - Good Idea??

System

You seem to be jumping in making assumptions and flinging out warnings without either reading the OP's posts carefully or accepting that he is truthfully representing the facts.

His family circumstances exactly mirror our own a year ago, with a daughter living at home and having occasional use of a second family car that we had already had for years.
The difference between main driver and occasional is captured by two simple sentences:

"My car won't start I need to get to work".

and

"Is it OK if I borrow the car this evening Dad?"

mrsvanderkamp_2

forgotmyname wrote: »

Im very blunt and say what i see. If you dont like it then ignore me.
Maybe i should change my signature to that.

But having him as a named driver wont earn him his own proper no claims that can be transferred to any insurer. You will be locked into that insurer or group.

And in 5 years he will still have to declare zero no claims. If taking a policy in his own name.

They will query any incident in fine detail. Did you see the link someone posted today. BBC news page Insurers refuse thousands of claims every year because a parent claimed to be the main driver and was not.

Or the link to someone that had an accident, Uninsured and now has a bill for £40,000.

Not a great start to life.

6 points for no insurance = licence gone for him and a retest.

I understand and appreciate what you say. I know he wont earn NCD for that year but surely driving claim free for a year has to help a little.

Also the fact remains that it is my car and he will have some use of it. As it happens my husband has his own car, so he rarely uses mine, but if he didn't we would effectively share my car, yet still one of us has to be proposer and therefore the "main driver" so how is that any different? And I imagine that is the case for many households.

I imagine there are a number of instances where insurers investigate on the basis that they think they have been lied to and genuinely haven't been. Firstly how do they (or the insured for that matter) prove that the parent who stated to be the main driver is not (without the benefit of tracking) and secondly it seems to me to be just another way for insurers to get out of paying up on a legitimate policy and legitimate claim. The fact that I've owned and insured the car for 5 years already shows that it is legitimately mine and has not been bought with the intention of "fronting" the insurance.

I have insurance because its a legal requirement and would not under any circumstance countenance being uninsured or allow an uninsured driver the use of my car; the car is worth £500 - it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they found a reason not to pay up in the event of a claim and even if they did, the cost of the premium far outweighs the value of the car, so I'd still end up with nothing (and that's just the car, not even considering the issue of injury). With insurers being told to match premiums regardless of gender, I guess they've got to get their money back somehow ;-/

mrsvanderkamp_2

Clifford_Pope wrote: »

You seem to be jumping in making assumptions and flinging out warnings without either reading the OP's posts carefully or accepting that he is truthfully representing the facts.

His family circumstances exactly mirror our own a year ago, with a daughter living at home and having occasional use of a second family car that we had already had for years.
The difference between main driver and occasional is captured by two simple sentences:

"My car won't start I need to get to work".

and

"Is it OK if I borrow the car this evening Dad?"

Thanks for your post. I may have given the impression that he will use it more often than he actually will in my initial post. Whilst he does work the late shift 3/4 times a week, he's unlikely to be using the car on all of those occasions because I will in fact be using it myself so he won't be able to. But even if he did, and I also use it 3/4 times a week who decides who is the "main driver"? The insurer I guess, because that means they can charge double the premium.

forgotmyname

Clifford_Pope wrote: »

You seem to be jumping in making assumptions and flinging out warnings without either reading the OP's posts carefully or accepting that he is truthfully representing the facts.

"Is it OK if I borrow the car this evening Dad?"

But that is not what the OP put, They put that he will be using it to commute to and from work.

Not quite the same.

I wouldnt say commuting was occasional use.

In the end its down to the OP, Its their money and life and risk.

Phone an insurer and say my son will occasionally use the car but will be commuting and see if they agree thats occasional use.

mrsvanderkamp_2

So I have just had a conversation with the best offer of insurance provider for my son as named driver in order to try and clarify (and to ensure that I am being completely unfront with them). The converation went like this

Me " I want to check if there is any definition or restriction to the usage of a named driver on the policy that you quoted me for as there is no defination in the policy document or t&c's that I have just read"

Them "how do you mean"

Me " I mean how much can a named driver use the car? My son may be using it as much as I am or may be less it will depend and I want to make sure we are covered and not breaking any laws"

Them "Will he use it for work"

Me "yes"

Them "then you need to say that on the proposal"

Me " But it doesn't ask that question, I am insuring it for that use generally but it doesn;t ask me to confirm what the named driver will use the car for so I can't answer the question"

Them "well then if you have selected that cover, that should be fine"

Me "well I'm a little uncomfortable with "should" can't I give you the reference from the online quote and you can check for me"

Them "No, we can't give quotes on the phone, but you can call us after you've bough the policy and we can change it if we need to"

Me "but what if you can't do it, and we're not covered for that use or you can but at too high a price?"

Them "then you can cancel"

Me "but wont that mean I'll lose the £245 deposit i'll have just paid and have to pay cancellation fees too?"

Them "yes"

Me "Great, you've been very helpful"

In fact they were no help and it seems that trying to be honest with them is almost impossible and has got me nowhere. I know you are going to say why don't I just insure it in his name, and the honest answer is that in addition to the cost (which I am not so concerned about) he won't be using my car forever and I have maximum no claims which I can kiss goodbye too as a named driver, so all ways round I get penalised! And to be honest, the reason I was so affronted by FORGETMYNAME's first post about fronting is because it geniunely hadn't crossed my mind that that was I could (potentiallly) be doing. I still don't think I am but am now completely paranoid about it hence my conversation with the insurer as above, which in fact was no help at all.

I am going to take the insurance and tell my son he can't use the car for work - slightly defeats the object of being able to drive and being insured but there you are :-/

forgotmyname

mrsvanderkamp wrote: »

Them "No, we can't give quotes on the phone, but you can call us after you've bough the policy and we can change it if we need to"


Me "but what if you can't do it, and we're not covered for that use or you can but at too high a price?"

Them "then you can cancel"

Me "but wont that mean I'll lose the £245 deposit i'll have just paid and have to pay cancellation fees too?"

Them "yes"

Me "Great, you've been very helpful"

Bit in BOLD.. Oh my... Yes im sure they will love that... Take out out policy for 99p. Then we call you to verify the facts and decide the information is wrong. Premium is now £5000.
Deposit, You want it back... Hear them snigger down the phone at you.. Loud laughter in the background.

Same goes with cancelling. It could be costly.

My daughters not had lessons for a while, Just had one and the instructor said do the theory now.

Looks like I will be poor again soon. Think it maybe a case of I will buy her a car if she pays the insurance..

mrsvanderkamp_2

forgotmyname wrote: »

Bit in BOLD.. Oh my... Yes im sure they will love that... Take out out policy for 99p. Then we call you to verify the facts and decide the information is wrong. Premium is now £5000.
Deposit, You want it back... Hear them snigger down the phone at you.. Loud laughter in the background.

Same goes with cancelling. It could be costly.

My daughters not had lessons for a while, Just had one and the instructor said do the theory now.

Looks like I will be poor again soon. Think it maybe a case of I will buy her a car if she pays the insurance..

Exactly my point! (your first para) I am thinking though that the issue of fronting is much more likely to occur (or be investigated as potentially occuring) depdending on the circumstance of the accident ie; high speed crash in a "hot hatch", several youngsters in the car, personal injuries etc, would be a lot more likely to be investigated IMO than a standard "bump" in a very modest car.

It has also just occured to me to seek the advice of my cousin who is (was but on maternity so I forgot) a senior motor claims adviser at RBS. I will see what her expert opinion is since she has spent the last 15 years dealing with and investigating claims

rudekid48

Your no claims bonus will be valid for 2 years, so if you think he will have his own car in 12 months or so, maybe your best bet would be to insure it in his name, let him get a 1 yr ncb then put it back into your name next year - that way there is no risk of fronting, he gets 1 yrs ncb (valid for a further 2yrs), you keep your ncb and everyone is happy :money:

Saints2011

It sounds like fronting to me I'm afraid, even if your not deliberately trying to achieve it. The insurance will be based on the highest risk your son, if you asked me for a quote I'd decline the business. No doubt you have access to your husbands car as well, your son has access to only one car and he will be commuting in the car, therefore is the main driver. He needs to be listed as the main driver with the registered owner of the car recorded as being in your name.

The first year will be expensive but I'm quite shore even with 1years NCB it will dramatically drop. I speak to 30year olds with no bonus because they've always been a named driver asking why is my premium x amount I'm 30. Yes but 30 with no bonus etc v a 30 year old with bonus etc. It depends on other factors of course as well.

mrsvanderkamp_2

So I have now arranged insurance in my name with my son and husband as named drivers. I have taken advice from both the insurers concerned and a senior motor claims adviser.

I am advised that if a claim was made with my son having been in charge of the car, whilst it is possible that it would be investigated (it is not uncommon in such circumstances) an investigator is extremely unlikely to adjudicate that fronting has taken place and the reasons that that would be the most likely outcome are as follows

The car is registered to me and has been for the last five years. It is the only car I own and is registered to me. Adding my son as named driver having just passed his test to an established pre-owned family car would not generally suggest fronting and is generally considered a perfectly normal thing for a parent to do. The car has not been purchased with the sole intention of suggesting it is mine when in fact it will be solely for my son's use (as might also be the case if myself or my husband bought a second car, registered it in our name and then declared that one of us were the main driver; clearly that would not be the case and that would be a clear case of fronting)

Due to it being my car, I pay for the insurance (from my bank account) I pay for the road tax, I pay for the MOT, I pay for the petrol and I pay for maintenance and repairs.

I use the car, and will continue to use it, on a regular basis to commute to and from my place of work and for pleasure as and when I need to.

The car is insured for Social Domestic Pleasure and Commuting INCLUDING having declared that my son will use the car for Commuting purposes also. This DOES NOT mean that he becomes the main driver - it means that when it is freezing cold/raining, late at night or early in the morning and the car is available, he will use to get to and from his place of work; again it is perfectly natural for a parent to allow this in place of a young adult walking home alone at 1am in the morning or in the pouring rain. What reasonable person would suggest otherwise? What on earth would be the point of him having access to the car otherwise? The significant point here is that he does not NEED the car to commute to work, it is there as a luxury in the circumstances outlined above.

As posted by CLIFFORD_POPE previously, the question is not "mum/dad the car won't start how do I get to work?" its "mum/dad, its raining can I take the car?" or "i'm finishing work really late tonight, can I take the car" The very fact that they have to ask permission to use the car should be a strong indicator of the fact that it is not "theirs".

I am also advised that in the very unlikely event that fronting was "proven" based on the above information I would have a very strong case to defend it and take the insurer to the Ombudsman.

I have often used this site and have received fabulous advice in the past but in this case, I am afraid all I received was a lot of scaremongering "advice", which was neither useful nor correct in this situation. I didn't in fact receive any meaningful contribution to the question actually asked in my original post.

The "advice" I did receive resulted in me wasting a lot of time obtaining alternative quotes, because I had been scared into doing so, when it was not in fact necessary. (Some) Contributors to this thread have suggested that I was attempting to break the law and being made to feel like a potential criminal is not a nice feeling.

Call me old fashioned, but in these circumstances I am minded to take the advice of the professionals that I have spoken to. I hope that anyone else in a similar situation to me will read this thread with interest but will not got scared out of their wits by it like I did and will do as I did; that is to speak carefully with your insurer to ensure that you are completely transparent with them and on that basis you shouldn't have any issues.