Storage Heaters to use or not to use??

bella2012

Hey guys totally new to the site but sure someone will have a wee bit of advice for me.

I currently live in a top floor flat which is costing me a bomb to heat right now, averaging about £70 - £90 per week. I'm on maternity leave so i am in most days and obviously need the heating on for the wee man. We are currently on a pre-pay meter which is going to be changed to monthly dd.

We do have storage heaters but they are quite old and did use them last year but they cost a fortune so now use the stand alone oil heaters instead. Phoned energy supplier this morning and was basically told that we should use the storage heaters at night during off peak to heat the house not the oil ones as they will be dearer.

What i'm wondering is should i get new storage heaters and have them on at night or was the guy just fobbing me off about my electricity costs?? It seems that other people in our area don't use their storage heaters as they are too expansive so I'm really confused and getting poorer by the day.

Sorry about the long windedness of it all, any comments appreciated

Thanks

tonyh66

are you on an economy 7 tariff? this makes all night (between 12 and 9am) electricity cheaper, not just the supply to the storage heaters. It then comes down to the efficiency of the storage heaters vs the oil radiators. close all your doors and put heavy curtains up at doors and windows try to keep the heat in the rooms you are using.

john1

bella2012





If your flat is a normal 2/3 bed it does seem on the high side.


As Tonyh66 gives good advise and you do need to check if you are on an E7 tariff and that the storage heaters only get charged during the "low" period.You may need to get in an competent electrician to confirm by tracing the electric circuits . Also check your roof insulation.


I have storage heaters and replace the original 20 year old ones for the latest "automatic" units.


These are far more economical than my original units and the temperature is a fairly constant 20.5 - 21C throught the day and evening.


Most night store heaters are much the same internally, the same bricks element and thermostat but differ in external design and cost £250 to£400 each depending upon make and size.


Beware though quite a few companies about selling imported heaters. Claiming greater efficiencies lower running costs, don't get sucked in to paying £1400 for a heater you can get from the high street for £50.

macman

Using oil-filed heaters (or any other sort of electric heaters) on peak rate E7 will cost you around 4 times as much per kWh as storage heaters on cheap rate. What do you think the point of storage heaters is, if not to economise by using cheaper rate power?
All electric heaters are the same efficiency, 100%.

Richie-from-the-Boro

bella2012 wrote: »

Hey guys totally new to the site but sure someone will have a wee bit of advice for me.

I currently live in a top floor flat which is costing me a bomb to heat right now, averaging about £70 - £90 per week. I'm on maternity leave so i am in most days and obviously need the heating on for the wee man. We are currently on a pre-pay meter which is going to be changed to monthly dd.

We do have storage heaters but they are quite old and did use them last year but they cost a fortune so now use the stand alone oil heaters instead. Phoned energy supplier this morning and was basically told that we should use the storage heaters at night during off peak to heat the house not the oil ones as they will be dearer.

What i'm wondering is should i get new storage heaters and have them on at night or was the guy just fobbing me off about my electricity costs?? It seems that other people in our area don't use their storage heaters as they are too expansive so I'm really confused and getting poorer by the day.

Sorry about the long windedness of it all, any comments appreciated

Thanks

Four and a half grand a year is madness for E7 or E10 nightstore. The cheapest tariff at the moment is Scottish Powers 'fresh start' which is about 9.9p day, and 4.9p night with a 32ppd service charge cost although they along with most others go up this year to around 11.4p day, 5.5p night and 36.8 ppd service charge cost even for the privileged 'fresh start' customers.

From the figures you give us I'm saying you are not on night store or have an inadequate store of cheap night electricity. Additionally are you taking advantage of the 365 days of a full tank of piping hot cheap water a year, or is it switched off, and you are instead using the ineffective and megga expensive 'immersion' heater for hot water.

- you have E7 but are you using E7 or some other form of heating ?
- if so what other form of water and space heating are you using ?
- what average kWh do you use a year ?
- what tariff are you on ?

bella2012

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

Four and a half grand a year is madness for E7 or E10 nightstore. The cheapest tariff at the moment is Scottish Powers 'fresh start' which is about 9.9p day, and 4.9p night with a 32ppd service charge cost although they along with most others go up this year to around 11.4p day, 5.5p night and 36.8 ppd service charge cost even for the privileged 'fresh start' customers.

From the figures you give us I'm saying you are not on night store or have an inadequate store of cheap night electricity. Additionally are you taking advantage of the 365 days of a full tank of piping hot cheap water a year, or is it switched off, and you are instead using the ineffective and megga expensive 'immersion' heater for hot water.

- you have E7 but are you using E7 or some other form of heating ?
- if so what other form of water and space heating are you using ?
- what average kWh do you use a year ?
- what tariff are you on ?

Hi guys thanks for getting back to me,

I have E7 i think but don't use my storage heaters at night so not saving any electricity at the cheap rate in that respect. The heaters are really old going to try a wee experiment and turn them on tonight and have the oil heaters off during the day and and how much I use.

Don't have a clue what I use in a year but do have hot water all the time so i think that's on at night.

My tariff is 17.5p on peak 7.30 - 11.30 and 7.5p off peak in the night.

In the process of changing to direct debit the now and then I think I'll shop about and see who is cheapest.

So do all you money saving experts reckon get the storage heaters replaced and working proplerly and bin the oil ones??

Thanks again

macman

Your annual kWh consumption is shown on your annual statement, as is your tariff (or easily calculated from your bills). It's pointless and expensive being on E7 if you are not using the night rate for storage heaters. You are just burning money, as you are paying a higher rate than standard single rate for all your other consumption.
You don't need your hot water on for more than a couple of hours early in the morning on cheap rate if the tank is adequately lagged-it will stay hot all day.
Oil filled rads will cost nearly 35-400% more to run than storage heaters on E7 cheap rate.
Your experiment won't reduce your consumption, only your bills, as you will be heating on cheap rate overnight.

Richie-from-the-Boro

- """stand alone oil heater""" - what exactly is a stand alone oil heater
- """don't use my storage heaters at night"" - that then is your core problem !
- """stand alone oil heater""" if you mean paraffin that's about £2 per litre
- """ get the storage heaters replaced""" - brand new will be no more efficient than old

5 x £400 & 5 x £100 per unit for someone else to 'fit' them - its your £2500.00 .. .. ! all you will end up with is the same 100% efficient new heaters while throwing out 100% efficient old heaters - that improves nothing, just empties the bank.

grahamc2003

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

- all you will end up with is the same 100% efficient new heaters while throwing out 100% efficient old heaters - that improves nothing, just empties the bank.

Of course new storage heaters are much better than the old uncontrollable type, since they are better insulated and more controllable. This means there is less heat being output when you don't really want it and more heat output when you do want it. You can control the temperature profile of the room/house much better, effectively shifting the heat output from very early in the day to late at night when you need it. Most complaints about storage heaters are due to the old type which simply run out of heat in the evening due to uncontrollable heat loss earlier in the day.

The OP imv should use the storage heaters on the cheap rate rather than using any other electric heating on expensive rate. To fully charge a 3.4kW night storage heater will cost no more than £1.50, and probably less, and, unless it's really cold outside and/or the insulation is really poor, should keep the place warm till bedtime, or close.

Richie-from-the-Boro

grahamc2003 wrote: »

Of course new storage heaters are much better than the old uncontrollable type, since they are better insulated and more controllable. This means there is less heat being output when you don't really want it and more heat output when you do want it. You can control the temperature profile of the room/house much better, effectively shifting the heat output from very early in the day to late at night when you need it. Most complaints about storage heaters are due to the old type which simply run out of heat in the evening due to uncontrollable heat loss earlier in the day.

The OP imv should use the storage heaters on the cheap rate rather than using any other electric heating on expensive rate. To fully charge a 3.4kW night storage heater will cost no more than £1.50, and probably less, and, unless it's really cold outside and/or the insulation is really poor, should keep the place warm till bedtime, or close.

- I didn't say better, I said efficient 100% is 100% - that's physics
- a 50 year old heater was .. .. and still is 100% efficient, the same as a brand new one
- I never mentioned controllability in this thread .. .. but did in a~n~other thread [#9]
- spending £2.5k on new heaters will not significantly reduce the O/P's £4.5k annual leccy bill
- the O/P would do better learning to properly use what they have, and replace one old with a duo & controller
- and use any surplus to improve insulation .. .. this in turn will reduce the £4.5kpa costs





I agree with the improved control, there has never been any disagreement that new ones have improved control / better thermal capacity / smaller for the same storage & output / the benefit of remote zone programming control duo heaters with both background [nightstore] and front panel 13a comfort [Radiant] output.


I looked at 'improved insulation' and found no real significant improvement, if you have any tables / evidence to the contrary - show me - I've never seen any empirical figures.

_________________________ reproduced from here to save people looking for it :

Modern bricks have a better thermal capacity than the older ones, and so the heater is slightly smaller for the same storage & output. Heat is released (1) through the core by air circulation and (2) through the insulation. A heater installed 50 years ago was 100% efficient and its still the same 100% efficient today, its just old big and ugly, but its efficiency does not get less as they get older, its still 100%, and all 100% of the heat they produce goes into the room. No greenhouse gas's no carbon dioxide, no poisons, maintenance free, anyone with a screwdriver only can dismantle them, the bricks are in high demand and make the best pizza ovens in the world, even your own back garden. In that case there's no need to change the old, old does not mean bad and useless, it just means old. You are never going to change big, even a brand new one that is dual and very much more effective at quick and more flexible heating is still going to be big, you can however make ugly and old into smart and new with a can of spray paint.

On the issue of the amount of heat that escapes I've been preaching for years in this group that (1) sufficient storage and (2) keep the damper closed always is the most cost effective way to use this form of stored heat, most people don't store sufficient in the first place or they would never need to open the damper. The old power station night time imbalance of capacity that led to cheap rate night rate storage [ hence the name ] is outdated anyway, many modern night storage heaters can be remotely controlled, in fact controlled any time there is overcapacity even during the day, smart meters already exist, the heater only needs to draw for four and a half hours of a 24 hour cycle and a smart meter can deliver that 20% requirement in any amount of variables any time day or night. You could even remotely control them yourself with your mobile.

The tech exists its up to the industry to get it together, if we had already done something about it the German snake~oil~sellers would not have the hold they do in this country.

If the reps from the leccy companies come across this post get a grip you could carve out a whole new massive market segment by delivering truly flexible 24 hour system

grahamc2003

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

- I didn't say better, I said efficient 100% is 100% - that's physics.

No, that's incorrect.

Usually with heating, efficiency usually means the ratio of heat produced to the amount of electricity used - which is always 100% - that bit is physics.

But efficiency can be defined any way we like (within reason) to differentiate between different characteristics of different systems. In the case of storage heaters, we could define efficiency, if we like, as the ration of heat remaining at (eg)17:00 compared to heat input. We could call this the '5pm efficiency' if we liked. You'd find the '5pm efficiency' was much higher for modern storage heaters than old style storage heaters, and this due to better insulation materials.The same higher insulation means that later in the day, the heat remaining can be extracted from the central area of the heater via convection (by opening a flap to allow airflow through).

I've personally had several thick old heaters replaced by several modern slimline heaters, and there really is no comparison between the efficacy of each type - the former being very poor at storing heat late into the evening, the latter usually acceptable at doing so.