Difficulty with Electrian... any advice please?!! :)

baldelectrician

Alias_Omega wrote: »

Earth bonding? With the introduction of plastic piping, it always made it difficult. Therefore we would run a 4mm earth from a ring main socket/consumer unit to the radiator/sink/bath as required. Additionally, similar to the kitchen sink & across the bottom of the boiler.

Neither are required to comply with BS771:2008 (17th Edition)

In BS7671:2001 - Amendment 2;(16th Edition) Cross bonding was required in a bathroom in some circumstances, but it was NOT required in a Kitchen

Gas regulations require cross bonding at a boiler (which is pointless as the boiler pipes are electrically connected via the steel plate on the boiler which gives better continuity than bonding clamps would), but it isn't required by 16th Edition


OP
I would suggest you ask the NICIEC to perform an EICR to BS7671:2008 (IEE Wiring Regs , 17th Edition), this will cost you £150 or so, but provide you with information you need.

I suspect things mat not be as they seem, but get it checked.

fluffpot

BG - the clue is in the name - GAS - not electrics. As for the point about mulicore flex being dangerous.... ask them to point out the regulation that states this. I'd love to see it!
As others have said there may be other reasons behind the items:
eg main earth size can be calculated to see if it is sufficient and doesn't always have to be 16mm squared
Light with no earth - if it's plastic then this is OK as long as note made on cert/fuse board

I would go back to BG or (better still) get a second opinion from a proper electrician

Parisian

Thank you so much everybody for your replies, I really appreciate it and haven taken on board all that has been said...

An update... The electrician came around with his wife on Friday evening. His wife was being very off, and I asked her if she had anything to do with the business at the front door - she insisted on coming in because she "pays taxes for the business". She was quite difficult, but I am used to dealing with difficult people I guess!

He told me he started the work in October 2007, and came back to finish some work in 2008 and so kept to the regulation that was in place in October 2007 for the whole job. He named the edition at the time, but I can't remember it. I think it is the 16th edition (correct me if i am wrong!).

He said:
1. Regarding using multicoreflex as a switch line in the hallway - there is no regulation to say that this cannot be used, and that it is okay to use as long as it can take the load (something similar to what you said brutus1983). I think he may have done the whole house with it...
2. He will return to check the CPC continuity in the hallway light and to make the earth bond to water visible (he agreed this should be visible).
3. He says the earth is 16mm, and brought a 10mm and 16mm green/yellow earth wire to compare the sizes to.
4. He says the fuse board is in keeping with the regulation that was in place when it was fitted.

He will return in mid-November (an agreed date that is suitable to us both) to sort out point 2 above and to make sure his work was in line with the regulation at the time. In addition, he will fit lights (we just have hanging bulbs at the moment everywhere) in all rooms (which he did not do in 2007/08). We were particularly concerned as he left two wall lights with live wire just hanging on the wall without any covers. We often have small children visiting so that really concerned us. A British Gas engineer who visited in the past saw them and covered them with plastic boxes to make them safer. He will fit two wall lights there.

Additionally, he will give me a copy of all the paperwork he has from 2007/08 including all the checks he made. He gave us a compliance certificate in 2008, but not a completion certificate - and he said he will give us this too (I think we need this to sell the house).

Does this sound like a good outcome from our meeting?
It sounded okay to me at the time, but having read a few posts above I'm a little unsure. Nevertheless, I was thinking that if he does what he says he is going to do - that will be okay for me. If he does not, I will not hesitate to make a full complaint to the NEC EIC. The complaint procedure sounds fair - if you cannot resolve things with the engineer informally, then you fill in a form and an NEC EIC engineer does an inspection of the parts you are concerned about (I guess it would be best to have an electrician assess all the wring work first as suggested in a post above) and so on from there...

Does the work he offered to do seem fair to all your experienced posters?

keystone

Seems reasonable to me. The 17th came into force for all installations designed after July 2008. Designed doesn't mean installed or completed either so it sounds as though he's OK with doing it all to the 16th.

Cheers

fluffpot

sounds like you're getting the outcome you wanted, so can't say fairer than that

baldelectrician

The wiring regs do permit flex to be used as fixed wiring, but only with some provisions

REG; 521.9.1 (17th Edition wiring regs BS7671:2008)
A flexable cable shall be used for fixed wiring only where the relevant provisions of the Regualtions are met. Flexable cables used for fixed wiring shall be of the heavy duty type unless the risk of damage during installation and service, due to impact or other mechanical stresses, is low or has been minimized or protection against mechanical damaged is provided.

16th Edition BS7671:2001; amend 2
A flexable cable or flexable cord shall be used for fixed wiring only where the relevant provisions of the regulations are met.

The old regs had a statement, the new regs elaborate on this

IMO flex can be used for certain circumstances- such as flex to an immersion heater or cooker where heat resisitant properties are required. This would only be a short length from an outlet to an item of equipment

I think flex used for fixed wiring is rough IMO.

fluffpot

Rough, yes, but does not present major danger (and not requiring 'immediate inspection' as BG noted..)

Parisian

Thank you baldelectrician for those points from the Regulations ... what do you mean by rough?

An update - he came around on the weekend. I can't say he is the most pleasant of people. He was messy. It took him a day to fit 3 ceiling lights. He wants to return to look at the CPC continuity issue in the hallway, and to make the earth bond to water visible (he can't remember how he ran it, and can't see it entirely, but says there he did two of these connections and will need to remove cupboards to have a look). He has such a rough hand and has left gaping holes in ceilings and ruined walls during his initial work, and so I am reluctant to let him cause more damage/havoc.

Additionally, he requested £500 for this work. He says my mother did not pay him the entire amount in 2008, and I am not sure what exactly happened as my mother cannot remember everything. He would not budge on this, and we agreed to pay him £300 in order to settle and get the completion certificate.

Really annoyed by this awful man.

baldelectrician

'rough' means 'rough and ready' or shoddy (IMO)
Option 1:
If you have lost faith in him I would cut your losses. £300 would cover what needs done and you would be happier.

Ask him to issue you with all relevant certification - this is required by his governing body. He can not withold certification.

Give him 7 days to provide certification (BS7671 Electrical Installation Certificate) or you will make a formal complaint with his governing body
He should be certifying his works anyway.

Option 2
Put up with things as they are and bite the bullet

I would call the NICIEC helpline and ask them to recommend a local well established company to carry out an inspection and test.
This will giove you independent information on the installation from a third party. It will also help you gain leverage if this is required.

More info on EICR's HERE

Parisian

Thank you, baldelectrician...

I believe he has said he will not issue the completion certificate without payment of £300 (he asked for £500 initially).
He was surprised that we had a compliance certificate (I think this is from the Council).
Is he definatley obliged to provide the certification?