Son dropping out of college-am I still entitled to tax credits

Dunroamin

dktreesea wrote: »

What I'm not so into is parents whose children deserve a gap year not wanting their children to languish and relax for a short time in their lives before they resume their education. 13 years in an institution like school deserves a break, imho, no matter how well or otherwise the child did.

We're not talking about 18 year olds taking a gap year before university, we're talking about 16 and 17 year olds who've dropped out of the system early.

(Not that 18 year olds should sit round for a year - funded by their parents - playing games and going on Facebook because they need a break!

dktreesea

justthisonce wrote: »

Not all people want or need a job with prospects of great advancement. One of the happiest, most fulfilled people I know has been a street cleaner in Finchley for 20+ years. He has no aspirations to aim higher. He takes the utmost pride in 'his' streets and literally has to be forced to use his annual leave.

He is extremely well respected for the excellent work he does. This guy never has to buy a coffee or sandwich, in fact they are always prepared and waiting for him each day from the food establishments whose pavement frontages he keeps clean.

But we're not talking about people who have landed on their feet and are happy with the choices they made in life.

We're talking about people who went to college, made a mistake with the course, maybe (I suspect) because he couldn't get onto the course he wanted to do and ended up doing something else just for the sake of doing something, so is dropping out and then, if they are 17, are literally left destitute. No access to the dole, no access to another course until September, if they are fortunate enough to finally get a place on the course they want to do. He's left with having to hope he gets something through connexions, or careers scotland if he is up this way, just so at least his CTC continues and he gets enough to cover his rent and living expenses.

OP, if your son is 17 he is guaranteed a place on a training course, and, when it becomes available, in education. He should be given a work activity agreement by his local Connexions. The council will know all the training providers for your area. It should be seamless. He leaves college one day and has the work activity agreement in place for the following day.

If you have any problems with HMRC carrying on your CTC, talk to your council first. You need to make sure that the training provider is the correct one to use for the continuation of your benefits.

And before anyone tries to flame me for encouraging someone to make sure their benefits continue, just keep in mind, they are not the parent's benefits. They are benefits provided via parents for children, so that those children can eat and have a roof over their heads. I'm pretty sure if you don't have children, you don't get those particular benefits.

dktreesea

Dunroamin wrote: »

We're not talking about 18 year olds taking a gap year before university, we're talking about 16 and 17 year olds who've dropped out of the system early.

(Not that 18 year olds should sit round for a year - funded by their parents - playing games and going on Facebook because they need a break!

If those 16 and 17 year olds had been encouraged to study - and given places on - courses they are passionate about, they would still be studying now.

Is it only children who have qualified for uni who deserve a gap year? Why not all the rest as well?

dktreesea

poet123 wrote: »

Do you have teenage children?

I'm surrounded by them. My own, their friends, my cousins (!), their cousins.... It's not just me who has teenagers. So have some of my aunts and uncles and one of my neices.

Dunroamin

dktreesea wrote: »

If those 16 and 17 year olds had been encouraged to study - and given places on - courses they are passionate about, they would still be studying now.

Is it only children who have qualified for uni who deserve a gap year? Why not all the rest as well?

I think you've been watching too much reality TV if you think that most 16 year olds are, or should be, "passionate" about what they study.

As for needing a break, this is so removed from the reality that I doubt you've ever met a NEET.

dktreesea

Dunroamin wrote: »

I think you've been watching too much reality TV if you think that most 16 year olds are, or should be, "passionate" about what they study.

As for needing a break, this is so removed from the reality that I doubt you've ever met a NEET.

I don't see the necessity for anyone under 18 to be a NEET. The government guarantees them a place in employment, education or training. People on low incomes below the age of 18 need to make sure they do what is necessary to not undermine their income, including that income paid on their behalf to their parents, by ensuring if they do drop out of college, or can't get on their desired course, that they arrange a work activity agreement for the interim.

16 and 17 year olds having to become homeless in order to maintain their incomes, just because the government guarantee isn't what it claims to be, is an appalling outcome.

poet123

dktreesea wrote: »

I'm only talking about for a short time, a year at the most. A gap year. Some space in their lives to be allowed to consider their futures, to make a decision instead of going from being p[ushed around and disrespected at school to the same treatment at home.

From your tone you seem to have had real issues with our education system. My children have never been disrespected at home or in school. The reality is if you give a person who is not already enamoured of study a year off at 16, it will be many years, if ever, that they return to it.

dktreesea wrote: »

So the kids took their time to decide what to do. They weren't ready, straight away, even before they left school, to decide on a future, so now the courses they want to do are closed to them? Disgusting. Our education system should be flexible enough to absorb people into the courses of their choosing even if they are 24 by the time they decide and commit to a course of action. it isn

The reality is that specific course places have maximum numbers determined by staffing and other finite resources. Once a course is full, if there are not enough still on the waiting list to make running and additional course viable we have to reluctantly say no. Those students are always helped to find similar or alternative courses.

dktreesea wrote: »

Seriously? That's the only viable option that you see on the horizon, to join the ranks of the masses, marching to the low paid monotonous hum of the wage slavers for the rest of their working lives?

And what else would you advocate to pay the bills? You rail against education, but it is that avenue which lifts most of us out of the lower rungs of wage slavery. Is there really an alternative to getting out there and earning?

dktreesea wrote: »

I would be for doing that, if it so happens to coincide with your passion. Some passions fit in with that kind of lifestyle. But if those parents who follow that lifestyle are always penny pinching, maybe even arguing about money, and struggling to make ends meet, all because they were too scared to give up their security blanket and believe in their ability to give themselves a better life, is it any wonder that the children don't want to follow in those parents footsteps?

I am sorry but you sound very airy fairy to me. What grand passions really pay the bills? Did you follow your passion?

Most of us work hard to pay for the ability to follow our passions, if we are lucky we enjoy our jobs, but I suspect few would say work was their passion.

dktreesea

poet123 wrote: »

From your tone you seem to have had real issues with our education system. My children have never been disrespected at home or in school. The reality is if you give a person who is not already enamoured of study a year off at 16, it will be many years, if ever, that they return to it.

What a disrespectful view of 16 year olds. Most teenagers I know are pretty focused on what they want to do. If the government can afford to waste money on paying out benefits for asset millionaires, not to mention self employed people who treat their business like a lifestyle decision instead of being something that is meant to be supporting them and their children, it can afford to fund the required further education places.

The reality is that specific course places have maximum numbers determined by staffing and other finite resources. Once a course is full, if there are not enough still on the waiting list to make running and additional course viable we have to reluctantly say no. Those students are always helped to find similar or alternative courses.

Maybe they don't want to be fobbed off on some alternative course. Our local college is already turning some students away from the course of their choice. They expect to be oversubscribed, in total, across all their courses, by not hundreds of places but thousands of places. It's not their fault. The government won't fund the extra places they need to meet demand. I realise this is a big city, but thousands of students denied a place in further education on a course of thier choosing? That's not an education model I support.


And what else would you advocate to pay the bills? You rail against education, but it is that avenue which lifts most of us out of the lower rungs of wage slavery. Is there really an alternative to getting out there and earning?

What did I say to give you the impression I "rail against education"? I want them to have an education, but in a subject they want to study, not some course they have to do because the courses they want to do are oversubscribed.


I am sorry but you sound very airy fairy to me. What grand passions really pay the bills? Did you follow your passion?

Yes, I did, dropping out of pre-med to do so. My parents are still disappointed, what is now getting on for decades later. About time they got over it, don't you think?

Most of us work hard to pay for the ability to follow our passions, if we are lucky we enjoy our jobs, but I suspect few would say work was their passion.

Yes, I've come across people who work like that, leaving the house at 7am, not back until 6pm, who don't enjoy their jobs and just do it because they feel, at the grand old age of 34, that it's too late for them to do anything else. And worse, younger people, who went into a job because their parents told them they couldn't afford for them to go to university. Even though grants and student loans would have been available to him. I don't think either of those "models" are what I want for my children.

poet123

Originally Posted by poet123
From your tone you seem to have had real issues with our education system. My children have never been disrespected at home or in school. The reality is if you give a person who is not already enamoured of study a year off at 16, it will be many years, if ever, that they return to it.

What a disrespectful view of 16 year olds. Most teenagers I know are pretty focused on what they want to do. If the government can afford to waste money on paying out benefits for asset millionaires, not to mention self employed people who treat their business like a lifestyle decision instead of being something that is meant to be supporting them and their children, it can afford to fund the required further education places.

Not disrespectful at all, but the reality of NEETS, which is why they are NEETS. At 16 we need to re engage them not give them opportunity to sit at home and do nothing. The reality is if you do that they will not return to education for years, until they realise that they don't want to do the low paid, unskilled menial jobs.

The places will be there, even if it is not their first choice it will lead to a qualification, which is often the first one ever achieved by NEETS. Obviously, there has to be an interest in it or it is pointless, but sometimes the course they set their hearts on does not pan out either so getting a place on their first choice course does not guarantee a good outcome.

The reality is that specific course places have maximum numbers determined by staffing and other finite resources. Once a course is full, if there are not enough still on the waiting list to make running and additional course viable we have to reluctantly say no. Those students are always helped to find similar or alternative courses.

Maybe they don't want to be fobbed off on some alternative course. Our local college is already turning some students away from the course of their choice. They expect to be oversubscribed, in total, across all their courses, by not hundreds of places but thousands of places. It's not their fault. The government won't fund the extra places they need to meet demand. I realise this is a big city, but thousands of students denied a place in further education on a course of thier choosing? That's not an education model I support.

See above


And what else would you advocate to pay the bills? You rail against education, but it is that avenue which lifts most of us out of the lower rungs of wage slavery. Is there really an alternative to getting out there and earning?

What did I say to give you the impression I "rail against education"? I want them to have an education, but in a subject they want to study, not some course they have to do because the courses they want to do are oversubscribed.

And if the course is oversubscribed because they were not proactive and others were whose fault is that? Many students do get their first choice of course, those that don't are the ones who are undecided, should they get the places over those who do know their own minds?


I am sorry but you sound very airy fairy to me. What grand passions really pay the bills? Did you follow your passion?

Yes, I did, dropping out of pre-med to do so. My parents are still disappointed, what is now getting on for decades later. About time they got over it, don't you think?

Now we come to it....so it is your parents not the system you are railing against. Was Pre Med your choice or theirs?

Most of us work hard to pay for the ability to follow our passions, if we are lucky we enjoy our jobs, but I suspect few would say work was their passion.

dktreesea wrote: »

Yes, I've come across people who work like that, leaving the house at 7am, not back until 6pm, who don't enjoy their jobs and just do it because they feel, at the grand old age of 34, that it's too late for them to do anything else. And worse, younger people, who went into a job because their parents told them they couldn't afford for them to go to university. Even though grants and student loans would have been available to him. I don't think either of those "models" are what I want for my children.

My responses in red.

Hard to respond if you reply within the body of the quote.

I would agree neither of those are what I want for my children either, I don't think anyone has said anything different.

What has been said is that if students want to leave school or college they need to realise that they have to have an alternative. At that point they are unlikely to enter employment at much more than NMW level. If they choose to leave education that is what they should do to see if that is where they want to remain for the rest of their lives.

Of course there will be exceptions, those who go in at that level and by dint of hard work climb the ladder. However, increasingly, employers want paper quals and those without them drop down the pecking order in the employment sphere. Not something I would have wanted for my children.

I am glad you followed your grand passion I hope it pays well, if it does you are lucky, if it doesn't you have accepted the compromise, which is great, but it isn't for everyone.

Most of us strive to do jobs we enjoy, and which pay enough to fund our real passions, be that; family, travel, houses or cars or whatever floats our boat.

dktreesea

poet123 wrote: »

Not disrespectful at all, but the reality of NEETS, which is why they are NEETS. At 16 we need to re engage them not give them opportunity to sit at home and do nothing. The reality is if you do that they will not return to education for years, until they realise that they don't want to do the low paid, unskilled menial jobs.

The places will be there, even if it is not their first choice it will lead to a qualification, which is often the first one ever achieved by NEETS. Obviously, there has to be an interest in it or it is pointless, but sometimes the course they set their hearts on does not pan out either so getting a place on their first choice course does not guarantee a good outcome.

And if the course is oversubscribed because they were not proactive and others were whose fault is that? Many students do get their first choice of course, those that don't are the ones who are undecided, should they get the places over those who do know their own minds?

Now we come to it....so it is your parents not the system you are railing against. Was Pre Med your choice or theirs?


I would agree neither of those are what I want for my children either, I don't think anyone has said anything different.

What has been said is that if students want to leave school or college they need to realise that they have to have an alternative. At that point they are unlikely to enter employment at much more than NMW level. If they choose to leave education that is what they should do to see if that is where they want to remain for the rest of their lives.

Of course there will be exceptions, those who go in at that level and by dint of hard work climb the ladder. However, increasingly, employers want paper quals and those without them drop down the pecking order in the employment sphere. Not something I would have wanted for my children.

I am glad you followed your grand passion I hope it pays well, if it does you are lucky, if it doesn't you have accepted the compromise, which is great, but it isn't for everyone.

Most of us strive to do jobs we enjoy, and which pay enough to fund our real passions, be that; family, travel, houses or cars or whatever floats our boat.

First of all, I'm not railing against anybody. I used my own parents as an example, because it seems to me that parents often have expectations for their children that don't match what the child wants for themselves.

Yes, at 16 we do need to re-engage our children if they are leaving school but haven't chosen anything to go to. The best way to do that is give them access to the course, or working opportunity if the want to work and earn while they study, they want to go on.

Plenty of 16 year olds apply in good time for their college courses. They might still not get a place. Whose fault is that? The government's.

If, even if they had access to whatever they wanted to do, they still didn't feel like doing anything, that's different. I don't know any teenagers in that position. Their default position from what I can see is "we know what education we need access to, and we want it now." Indecisiveness is not one of their weaknesses.

I'm all for people following their passions. I hate working with people bored out of their brains at work. Or people who try to do the absolute minimum because they don't like their jobs but "have to" do them because they can't stand the alternative of changing to a lower paid but more enjoyable job. And I couldn't care less what it pays. Work should be about doing something meaningful for yourself, not just for a mediocre paycheck once a month. But one thing for sure, if it did only pay £1 an hour, I certainly wouldn't support the current situation, where other taxpayers have to add to the "passionate worker's" income, because their income isn't enough to pay their rent or put food on the table. Thank goodness UC is putting a stop to that wee racket.

If the government is prepared to offer courses in a particular discipline, then I expect them to be equally prepared to incentivise employers to take on -and pay - those graduates once they graduate, for at least three years, until they have sufficient experience to be able to stand on their own two feet in terms of getting employment. If they can do it for the NHS, why can't they do it for everything else?