Warm Home Discount Scheme

SwanJon

makfai wrote: »

If it is electric then pay it to the electric account/meter but if it is gas pay it to the gas account/meter. Why do otherwise?

This was answered in an earlier post

Man_Overboard wrote: »

I would guess that the 'logic' behind crediting the discount to electricity accounts is based upon the fact that whilst 'everybody' uses electricity, there are lots of people who have no gas.

It seems that you are getting hung up on the name of the scheme and ignoring its intent.
What about those people who use a mixture of gas & electricity for heating - how do you propose dealing with that? Or Oil? Or LPG? or Wood?
Not everyone has gas, but 'everyone' has electricity. This means that by working through the electricity suppliers more people can receive the credit.

If suppliers chose which fuel to apply it to (and chose different ones) then some people would miss out and others would get double.
If the credit isn't going to be used for heating it will offset the electricity bill allowing more to be put into the gas/oil/LPG bill.

Richie-from-the-Boro

makfai wrote: »

'That's why the non data matched broader group is left to energy supply companies to decide who / if / when / how much / etc they will subsidise if at all. Put simply the broader group may be vulnerable, they may be incredibly wealthy, neither the state nor the supply industry have any way of knowing their worth.'

Suppliers CAN AND DO assess eligibility. The supplier's each have a vetting system which each supplier draws up using criteria arbitrarily chosen by them and not disclosed. Each supplier has a cap on the numbers - not disclosed. Each supplier requires people seeking eligibility to provide them with certain information. The supply industry is assessing each applicant.

I believe that the nine points I have listed in my original post identify weaknesses in this scheme not least being that the so-called DISCOUNT is not necessarily applied to the fuel used. I believe the other points I made are equally valid.

makfai, I'm out of this thread after this post. It seems to be the case that you are arguing for gas as well as electricity to be rebated and the broader group to be given the same privileged advantage as the core group - none of your 'personalised' wish list is ever going to happen, so as a thread, this thread is open to debate of only an academic kind. There is nothing wrong with that type of debate that resolves nothing and leads to no new information, but its only ever going to be a rehearsal for a show that will never happen.

The current definition of fuel poverty is spending more than 10% of income on adequate energy services in the home. The latest May 2012 estimates, showed that :

- there were 3.5 million fuel poor households in England in 2010
- this was expected to increase to 3.9 million households by 2012

The 'core group' are households that receive the guarantee element of Pension Credit. The big 6 suppliers are 'required' to offer the discount. Suppliers with less than 250,000 customers don't have to offer the discount to either the core or broader groups. Always check .. .. some of the smaller suppliers do offer the Warm Home Discount. Receipt of this does not affect your cold weather payment .

The important point I make about the 'core group' is that those who on the 21 July 2012 receive only the guarantee credit element of pension credit or, if they are aged 80 or over and receive the guarantee credit element of pension credit, [even if they get savings credit too]. In each case the pension credit recipient or their partner must be named on their electricity bill with one of the participating energy supply companies to receive the pre- scribed discount. All relevant pension credit customers who are or may be eligible will receive a letter from Government this winter, letting them know they will receive an automatic discount or that they may need to claim.

The 'broader group' are households which variously could include those on low income with a disability, long-term illness or those with young children, but each supplier can decide their own set of eligibility criteria, this in turn is approved by Ofgem. The different energy companies and their different Ofgem approved crieria for the broader group and their own free 0800 telephone numbers are here and Receipt of this does not affect your cold weather payment .

Since these groups were legislated for rather than the previous voluntary arrangement [800,00] around an estimated 2 million dwellings will benefit of which 1.4 million are pensioners in 2012-2013 although the final figures will not be known till Ofgem reports the final figures in 2013.

Best wishes to you makfai ..................

SwanJon

makfai wrote: »

If one looks at the legislation ...

Having now skimmed the legislation in your link I see that every reference to the credit is also to a 'scheme electricity supplier'.
While 'scheme gas suppliers' are defined it appears they have no role to play.

Your interpretation of prepay meters and the WHD is incorrect. Credit must be applied to the PP meter, not just left on the account.

I suppose the legislation was written to allow a change to 'scheme gas suppliers' if required, but this has not happened.

makfai

Richie-from-the-Boro

I don't know why you attribute things to me which are not said by me.

I posted my original post simply because the Warm Home Discount Scheme only pays the money to an electricity account/ meter yet the home may well be warmed by gas. I found this odd. Despite everything you have written you have not tried to explain why this should be.

The rebate is for energy used to warm the home - hence the name of the legislation. The rebate is set at £130 for this current period. My point is that I see no need for it to be only paid to the electricity account/meter when the user may have been using gas.

Man_Overboard_2

makfai wrote: »

This makes it all the more confusing when the payments are due between Jan-March 2013 and are described as 'rebates'. However, I am pleased to see that they will be in place (at least for some:)) before the challenge of meeting bills increased by winter arises

Co-incidentally, I have today received a letter from DWP, more than a month after I received my £130, confirming that, as a member of the Core Group, I will receive the money before the end of December.

To be honest, I don't really care how I receive the money - I would accept it in bagfuls of penny pieces if necessary! (not Euros though...)

makfai

SwanJon wrote: »

Your interpretation of prepay meters and the WHD is incorrect. Credit must be applied to the PP meter, not just left on the account. QUOTE]

I have never disputed the fact that the rebate must be made to a pre-payment meter if the user is using that form of payment. When I refer to account I am referring to those who do not pay by pre-payment meter but who pay by account. I have conflated the two systems by using the term 'account/meter'.

I made it clear that the law says:

Provision of rebates


‘22.—(1) A rebate to an eligible customer under this Chapter must be provided by—
(a) crediting the rebate to the customer’s account;
(b) tendering payment to the customer; or
(c) providing a customer who pre-pays for a fuel type with credit against future use of that fuel type.’

I merely said of this that: 'So not only is it rational but the law already requires for a customer who pre-pays for a fuel type to be provided with credit against future use of that fuel type. Why then does the rebate get put only on the electric meter?' Why is that wrong?

Please note that my reference to and argument regarding Reg 22 is invalid - please see post #21

The point I started out making and am still making is that no matter whether you pay by account or by meter the rebate will only be paid to the ELECTRIC account or meter even if you do not use that type of energy to warm your home. The legislation is called the Warm Home Discount and is designed to provide a rebate. Surely it should be a rebate on the fuel used to warm the home.

Having said all this I take your point that 'every reference to the credit is also to a 'scheme electricity supplier'. While 'scheme gas suppliers' are defined it appears they have no role to play.'

Maybe the answer to my queries is that this scheme ONLY applies to the use of electricity and not gas and that is why the money is only paid by electricity suppliers and only to electricity accounts meters. Maybe the scheme is not a rebate on energy used to Warm the Home at all but a simple electricity rebate dressed up by HMG as something else.

SwanJon

Sorry, my point was that you were misinterpreting the statement. To me it says that the £130 cannot be sent to the customer as a cheque, but must be put on the meter t be used.

I see you have ignored my comments about the rest of the legislation referring only to electricity suppliers as it didn't back up your argument.

Yes, it would be nice if the customer got to choose how the payment was made, but the logistics of it would outweigh the benefits.

makfai

SwanJon wrote: »

Sorry, my point was that you were misinterpreting the statement. To me it says that the £130 cannot be sent to the customer as a cheque, but must be put on the meter t be used.

I see you have ignored my comments about the rest of the legislation referring only to electricity suppliers as it didn't back up your argument.

Yes, it would be nice if the customer got to choose how the payment was made, but the logistics of it would outweigh the benefits.

I agree that the money has to be paid to a meter.

You do not need to be rude and attribute any false motives to my reply. I had not finished the reply but had to post it as I was having to leave the computer. Having returned you will see that I have now edited the reply to take into account your other comments which I do not dispute.

I was not mounting a campaign when I started this topic I was simply passing comment on something because - as I made clear - I found to be 'odd'.

As regards the logistics being a problem I thought that energy suppliers already had a way of transferring (at the user's request) credit from one account to another. It can't be that hard - when processing someone's application for the scheme - to ask them which account/meter they wish to have credited and input that into the computer at the same time as telling the computer that the person has been approved as a member of the scheme.

makfai

SwanJon

As an employee of BG perhaps you could answer for me the query I had regarding a user who heats their home by gas and has a different supplier for gas and electricity.

Does that user apply to the supplier of the energy (gas) used to warm the home or to the electricity supplier?

makfai

I have re-read the legislation and realise that Reg 22 quoted above only applies to the Legacy Aspect under Chapter 3.

The provisions for the Core and Broader Groups are at Regs: 7 (3) and 20(2) and say, inter alia,
(c) providing a customer who pre-pays for electricity with credit in the amount of the prescribed rebate against the cost (including Value Added Tax) of future electricity use.

Please ignore my previous comments on Reg 22 as it is clearly not relevant. It is clear that the legislation permits rebate ONLY re electricity use.