Private Parking Charge - Should I Appeal?

bt42

I came back to my car at work to be greeted by a lovely looking yellow sticker on my windscreen. I have a parking permit but parked outside of a marked bay (but not in any way causing an obstruction to anyone or anything). APCOA ("The world of parking!") administer the car park on behalf of my employer and they claim that I am apparently "Therefore required to pay an enforcement charge of £40" etc...

Now, I have widely researched this in the recent past after my wife got a PPC ticket, and rest assured I have no intention of paying their unenforceable invoice whatsoever.

However, where do I stand following the new bill as of the 1st of October? I haven't been on these fora yet since then so apologies if I'm raking again over recently well traversed ground! Should I appeal to POPLA, in order to cost them money? (They mention this on this invoice as a 'last resort' should I exhaust the APCOA 'appeals process')

Perhaps I could quote in my appeal my reason for appealing being that their charge is unenforceable, HMRC vs VCS etc.

Or should I merely continue to ignore?

Thanks in advance,
Ben

taffy056

Well to appeal or not to appeal , that is the question anyway you have an option here, you as the registered keeper of the vehicle can just ignore everything just like pre October and they won't take you to court. Or you can appeal with something that will guarantee they will turn it down. Then take to popla and cost them £32 then ignore the outcome if you lose as its binding on them not you. There is an increased chance that they may chance the small claims.

bt42

Thanks for the reply Taffy. I guess the question is to appeal or not to appeal? I've now been through a few of the most recent pages and the stickies, and I found a post from Coupon mad with some links to other discussions. However, I haven't yet seen any threads where anyone has been through the appeals process.

I'm inclined to go for it though! Give it a run. I've paid for parking, so I don't feel I owe anything, the PPC don't do a very good job at providing sufficient parking, and generally I feel a bit aggrieved by the injustice of these scammers. I fancy the notion of appealing, if only to cost them £32 to claw some back for all the people who they frighten into paying up.

More likely to go to small claims? Obviously that is a worry, but I feel that I would have a reasonably good chance in the event that it were to come to that (I note on one of the sticky threads that BPA have been advising their members to consider this, but on another that APCOA don't tend to do this).

taffy056

Nobody has been through popla yet, you'll be looking at mid to the end of November before the first ones go there. The ppc must give at least 28 days for an appeal then they must give an answer to accept or not. If not then it could go to popla, actually looking at it may be December before any

The_Slithy_Tove

bt42 wrote: »

More likely to go to small claims? Obviously that is a worry, but I feel that I would have a reasonably good chance in the event that it were to come to that (I note on one of the sticky threads that BPA have been advising their members to consider this, but on another that APCOA don't tend to do this).

They wouldn't stand a chance in court in your case. You had a permit (don't know if you have to pay for it or not). Parking over the lines would count as de minimis in the world of council parking, i.e. a trifle which would most likely be won at appeal. There are no losses to the landowner. They may as well try to claim that parking a blue car in an even numbered parking space when there's an R in the month is also against their arbitrary rules, and subject to a charge. It's all nonsense.

bt42

I'm thinking of sending this off to the company. Just to make sure I don't end up shooting myself in the foot with wording etc, does anyone have any suggestions:

Dear Sir/ Madam,

Notice Number xxxx, Issued 17/10/12 to XXXX XXX at xxxx for alleged infringement 04 – Not designated parking area

The above notice was issued to the above vehicle. I wish to appeal against it on the following grounds:
-I am not liable for the charge as APCOA has no interest in the land and is therefore unable to offer a contract for parking (HMRC vs VCS, Upper tax tribunal 2011)
-The proposed parking charge is excessive, is an unlawful penalty charge, and does not reflect a genuine pre-estimate of loss or damage.

I reserve the right to bring this appeal through the Parking on Private Land Appeals (POPLA) process, and this letter is without prejudice

Kind regards,
Yours faithfully,
bt42

RENEGADE_2

bt42 wrote: »

More likely to go to small claims? Obviously that is a worry...

Oh no it's not. You are missing the bottom line. The ticket can either be enforceable or unenforceable. To be enforceable, it must be lawful - if it is unlawful, then it stands to reason that it is unenforceable. Enforceable/lawful means that if they sue, they will win; unenforceable/unlawful means that if they sue, they will lose, and all of this without you saying a word.

Thankfully for you, it is the second category: unlawful, therefore unenforceable. In truth, it would have made no difference if you openly abused the conditions. Law is codified and it forbids citizens penalising one another and what you have received is a de facto penalty even though the invoice will not say so. Now, for you to lose in court, APCOA or the landowner will have to satisfy the court that your actions cost them the exact money they seek. Now look at your ticket, are there two fees? One for early settlement and another if it goes beyond two weeks? Tell me, how does that work? If losses are the greater amount, why are they letting you off with a discount? Or if the cheaper sum is the deficit, how are they justified with the wild increase if it goes past a certain date?

If you ignore, you'll get debt collector letters. In other words, they'll sidestep court and go straight to a debt collection agency and when this happens, your demand will be even higher. Ignore five of those and you'll see the last one sets out what they will sue for and this is an even more extreme ridiculous amount. In other words, it is all hot air! They know this, the debt collectors are in on the scam, they are powerless without the debt being registered, and you can see why they will never try to register the debt, because they can't - the charge is unlawful in that it seeks a figure beyond losses so CRАPCOA doesn't have a leg to stand on in court. They wanna try? Let them!

Driver8

I bet you, if you send a letter mentioning POPLA, they will cancel the ticket. They know it will cost THEM, not YOU. You know you can totally utterly ignore them either way.

They KNOW they are more or less demanding money with menaces, just read their letters they send, they will go nowhere near POPLA

If you mention POPLA they will know you're already clued up reading this and other forums, you know something? Horse face and Perky of the pies will be absolutely fuming over the last couple of days with the DVLA getting wise of the scumbags, their empire is crashing and i for one are loving it.

taffy056

bt42 wrote: »

I'm thinking of sending this off to the company. Just to make sure I don't end up shooting myself in the foot with wording etc, does anyone have any suggestions:

Dear Sir/ Madam,

Notice Number xxxx, Issued 17/10/12 to XXXX XXX at xxxx for alleged infringement 04 – Not designated parking area

The above notice was issued to the above vehicle. I wish to appeal against it on the following grounds:
-I am not liable for the charge as APCOA has no interest in the land and is therefore unable to offer a contract for parking (HMRC vs VCS, Upper tax tribunal 2011)
-The proposed parking charge is excessive, is an unlawful penalty charge, and does not reflect a genuine pre-estimate of loss or damage.

I reserve the right to bring this appeal through the Parking on Private Land Appeals (POPLA) process, and this letter is without prejudice

Kind regards,
Yours faithfully,
bt42

If you send something like this it's likely to be dropped as you clearly will be telling them that you know a few things about private parking. If you want to hurt them you should drop all the stuff you wrote. And write something like this. I suggest only writing this if you are prepared to sting them and not fazed by going to popla

---

Dear Parking Company

I refer to the parking fine received at XXXX on 01/10/12 , I would like to appeal your penalty charge on the basis that I had a permit/p&d to park at this location. I didn't see any of the non designated area you said on my PCN .

As a reputable company I am appealing your fine and hope that you see that this was a simple mistake that anyone could make.

Yours Sincerely

Mr A Mug

bt42

That's a very good point. Assuming of course they actually read the letter before sending off a stock rejection letter. I may save that for POPLA, and just write some guff eg justifying why I parked there etc.

bt42

I've written a fairly standard looking appeal letter stating that I had a valid permit, parked in good faith in a suitable space within my work car park, that there were no markings, yellow lines etc, and asking them nicely to cancel the 'ticket'.

I'll send it off tomorrow and feed back how the appeal process goes.