Speeding Ticket

Jamie_Carter

Wongsky wrote: »

Or are simply incompetent.

I say that literally, as opposed to metaphorically.

If we expect that drivers, when taking their practical test, can drive to a good standard, observe other traffic and road users, make good progress, yet not exceed the speed limit - then if people can't manage to do so once they've had the benefit of passing that, and more experience, then something is wrong.

Having to continually monitor your speedo, in order to not fall foul of speed detection, and cited as a cause of distraction or to the detriment of your normal driving, is a big crock. If we expect learner drivers to be able to manage it on their driving tests, we should be able to do it with additional experience.

Agreed. But with the possible exception of emergency vehicle drivers, who need to be concentrating far more on what is happening outside their vehicle, than on their speedo. But they should still be able to judge waht is a safe speed.

Tobster86

Jamie_Carter wrote: »

What none of us have mentioned is that if you are sitting in a good driving position, then you will be able to see your speedo in your peripheral vision.

One second you're stating that it's 'bad driving' to look at your speedometer, the next you're advocating it.

I'm making the point that what the speedometer reads actually has very little relevance. The ability to perceive a safe speed that accounts for all potential hazards (this can NEVER be scientifically represented by a number on a dial or road side stick) is far more important for road safety.

I believe that most people that complain about people who don't strictly comply with speed limits either have a lot of statist fear, or just can't perceive what is a safe speed themselves, are envious of those that can, and shouldn't be driving.

brat

Jamie_Carter wrote: »

Thanks for that, but it was a very long and drawn out way of saying what I had already said.

I was actually identifying the problems associated with thinking the way we naturally do when driving in a built up area. The fact that one resorts to the 'reptilian' response part of your brain for much of one's driving is good for the most part. Unfortunately our natural safe tendency to increase speeds when hazards diminish can make us much more prone to speed camera prosecutions, because their siting criteria cause them to be placed at just the point where our safe driving style has a tendency to take us over the applicable limit.

In simple terms it means that the safest drivers are more likely to be prosecuted for speed than those who need catching.

Jamie_Carter wrote: »

What none of us have mentioned is that if you are sitting in a good driving position, then you will be able to see your speedo in your peripheral vision. So most of these people who blame the fact that they have to constantly watch their speedo, as an excuse for their collision, are either in a poor driving position, or they are making it up, and they were actually distracted by something else (often using a mobile). In either case they should have allowed enough room to stop safely, and avoid a collision.

Most of us have to look down to see our speedo. Many older drivers have more difficulty focussing and take more time to focus on the speedo, then refocus on the view ahead.

I recall reading a report on the safespeed forum many years ago that suggested drivers can lose as much as 7 seconds of focussed view of the road ahead when approaching a speed camera because they are concerned about keeping on or about the speed limit.

Wongsky

Jamie_Carter wrote: »

Agreed. But with the possible exception of emergency vehicle drivers, who need to be concentrating far more on what is happening outside their vehicle, than on their speedo. But they should still be able to judge waht is a safe speed.

Yep - fair comment, I was going to add a caveat of emergency services drivers on a shout - but then they shouldn't really be being affected by it - and degree of common sense, and not over-jobsworth-ing by the camera operators, should see them as largely exempt from policing the speed limits.

(with caveats that that's not license to totally ignore any other factors, merely speed enforcement)

Jamie_Carter

Tobster86 wrote: »

One second you're stating that it's 'bad driving' to look at your speedometer, the next you're advocating it.

Now you are twisting my words. I said that a good driver shouldn't need to keep looking away from the road to look at their speedo. They should be able to judge their speed. And I am also saying that even for inexperienced drivers, they should be able to see the speedo in their peripheral vision. It doesn't take long driving a vehicle to be able to have a rough idea where the needle is on your speedo for various speeds.

Tobster86 wrote: »

I'm making the point that what the speedometer reads actually has very little relevance. The ability to perceive a safe speed that accounts for all potential hazards (this can NEVER be scientifically represented by a number on a dial or road side stick) is far more important for road safety.

I know what you are saying. But who is to say that you or anyone else is a good enough driver to drive safely over the speed limit? So we all have to stick to the same limits, as they are put their for the safety of all of us, and not just bad drivers.

Tobster86 wrote: »

I believe that most people that complain about people who don't strictly comply with speed limits either have a lot of statist fear, or just can't perceive what is a safe speed themselves, are envious of those that can, and shouldn't be driving.

Again, who is to say that you or anyone else is a safe driver at speed?

Jamie_Carter

brat wrote: »

I was actually identifying the problems associated with thinking the way we naturally do when driving in a built up area. The fact that one resorts to the 'reptilian' response part of your brain for much of one's driving is good for the most part. Unfortunately our natural safe tendency to increase speeds when hazards diminish can make us much more prone to speed camera prosecutions, because their siting criteria cause them to be placed at just the point where our safe driving style has a tendency to take us over the applicable limit.

In simple terms it means that the safest drivers are more likely to be prosecuted for speed than those who need catching.

The safest drivers won't get prosecuted more, because they will be sticking to the speed limits.

Those who think they are good drivers and aren't will be the ones who get caught by speed cameras.

brat wrote: »

Most of us have to look down to see our speedo. Many older drivers have more difficulty focussing and take more time to focus on the speedo, then refocus on the view ahead.

If you are sitting in the correct driving position, then you shouldn't have to look away from the road to see the speedo in your peripheral vision.

brat wrote: »

I recall reading a report on the safespeed forum many years ago that suggested drivers can lose as much as 7 seconds of focussed view of the road ahead when approaching a speed camera because they are concerned about keeping on or about the speed limit.

As I keep saying, you shouldn't need to keep looking at your speedo to jusde your speed. So you shouldn't have to refocus.

Jamie_Carter

Wongsky wrote: »

Yep - fair comment, I was going to add a caveat of emergency services drivers on a shout - but then they shouldn't really be being affected by it - and degree of common sense, and not over-jobsworth-ing by the camera operators, should see them as largely exempt from policing the speed limits.

(with caveats that that's not license to totally ignore any other factors, merely speed enforcement)

As TKA25 stated earlier, many emergency services in many areas brought in a rule that said you mustn't exceed the speed limit by more than 50%. But this was later thrown out because it would cause the drivers to concentrate on their speed, when they have to concentrate far more than most drivers on the road and other road users (mainly due to speed differentials).

But as you say, emergency vehicle drivers are not exempt from dangerous driving.

brat

Speed limits were actually enforced pretty effectively before the expansion of the speed cam industry. Because the enforcement had a degree of officer intelligence about it, and was often intell driven, it had a much greater effectiveness at targeting the right speeders, ie those whose speeding was significantly adding risk. This was not always the case, but enforcement mostly used to work on that basis.

That was all turned on its head when the speed cam industry started. They started enforcing in 'fish in a barrel' locations, making money from the minor indiscretion of otherwise law abiding motorists.

One of the biggest problems for me is that they have been instrumental in the huge reduction of road policing numbers, and in that respect have seriously influenced the direction of road safety through reducing the opportunity to target real risk such as carelessness, drink driving, disqualified driving, uninsured drivers, boy racers in residential areas and rural areas, and weekend bikers with overinflated egos about their riding ability.

brat

Jamie_Carter wrote: »

The safest drivers won't get prosecuted more, because they will be sticking to the speed limits.

Those who think they are good drivers and aren't will be the ones who get caught by speed cameras.

I'm not sure that evidence backs this up. Having had conversations with the representative of the DIC/SACs in our area, he's proud, and happy in a business sense that those who came to his Driver Improvement classes were a completely different demographic compared to those who came for Speed Awareness courses, implying that those who get speeding tickets don't crash.

If you are sitting in the correct driving position, then you shouldn't have to look away from the road to see the speedo in your peripheral vision.

We'll have to disagree on this one. I can't do it.

As I keep saying, you shouldn't need to keep looking at your speedo to jusde your speed. So you shouldn't have to refocus.

I agree to a degree. Appropriate speed should be apparent to a responsible compliant driver just by looking out of the windscreen.
Unfortunately it's an instinctive imperative to check your speed when approaching a speed camera, even if you're under the limit. It's almost impossible not to do it.

Buellguy

Just don't even start me on the people who brake for spped cameras even though they are doing UNDER the speed limit