What will they get with ESA?

sparkycat2

enabledebra wrote: »

If they get IS/SDA of £116.15 in total they will get £116.15 ESA if WRAG and £119.85 in SG (based on your standard ESA calculation) Edit - sorry if they are a couple your ESA rates are wrong-

SDA migrants will be treated as satisfying ESA NI contribution conditions so the award will be usual mix of Contribution based and any income related ESA due then topped up to £116.15 with TA if needed. DLA would be paid as usual on top of this.

So ESA support they end up with £119.85 contributions based

ESA WRAG they end up with £113.95 contributions based + £2.20 income based Transitional Award = £116.15 Because the transition for Income Support is calculated of Income Support before deducting income which in this case would be the SDA. Is that right?

Then DLA on top

enabledebra wrote: »

By sanctioned do you mean it's decided they don't satisfy the ESA capacity test and have to appeal?

Actually I was thinking of if they were put in the WRAG and failed to comply with work related activities. But I guess they could also end up failing the ESA assessment all together and appealing or being assessed as ESA WRAG and appealing to be put in ESA Support Group. Although I would hope they will be ESA Support Group sight unseen. Due to nature of disability and medical evidence. Although that relies on ATOS.

So worst case they are rejected for ESA or put in ESA WRAG and choose to appeal, trying to be put in ESA Support.

sparkycat2

I think with DLA the definition of bodily function has been massively increased by case law. Making my view outdated and wrong as to the nature of the help required being generally needed to survive. Also frequent attention throughout the day seems to mean four seperate times a day. Which is less frequent than I assumed.

DLA Decision makers also seem human in their decisions rather than callously following the guidelines.

I mean according to DWP Decision makers guide volume 10 – Benefits for Incapacity, Disability, Maternity and Bereavement.

61139 Attention given first thing in the morning, again at lunch time and again in the evening, is not normally regarded as frequently throughout the day.

61140 the need for attention or supervision may be reduced or removed by practical solutions. These may be in the form of an aid, or appliance, or some other measure.

I think it is fortunate that the DLA legislation has been interpreted broadly as far as what is meant by things like bodily function, and fortunate that Decision makers seem to not be overly zealous and callous in trying to minimize what counts as claimant's need for attention.

mazza1985

sparkycat2 wrote: »

I think with DLA the definition of bodily function has been massively increased by case law. Making my view outdated and wrong as to the nature of the help required being generally needed to survive. Also frequent attention throughout the day seems to mean four seperate times a day. Which is less frequent than I assumed.

DLA Decision makers also seem human in their decisions rather than callously following the guidelines.

I mean according to DWP Decision makers guide volume 10 – Benefits for Incapacity, Disability, Maternity and Bereavement.

61139 Attention given first thing in the morning, again at lunch time and again in the evening, is not normally regarded as frequently throughout the day.

61140 the need for attention or supervision may be reduced or removed by practical solutions. These may be in the form of an aid, or appliance, or some other measure.

I think it is fortunate that the DLA legislation has been interpreted broadly as far as what is meant by things like bodily function, and fortunate that Decision makers seem to not be overly zealous and callous in trying to minimize what counts as claimant's need for attention.

61139 would not be classed as frequent supervision, unless they needed supervision for more than 5 minutes at a time, at least twice in the evening. "Frequent" means at least 4 times a day.

61140 This is outdated now. For example, just because one is capable of using a commode, does not mean they have to unless they choose to. If they choose not to they are entitled to assistance to help them use the toilet.

Also "constant" does not mean constant. It means for a significant period, or frequent periods of at least 20 minutes at a time. Frequent meaning at least 4 times a day or night.

So because I get MRC does that mean I should be a hermit and not have a job, stay at home all day, and have no life? I don't think so.

sparkycat2

mazza1985 wrote: »

So because I get MRC does that mean I should be a hermit and not have a job, stay at home all day, and have no life? I don't think so.

I am glad it does not.

Please excuse my ignorance at earlier expressing that it was a mystery to me how someone who requires from another person frequent attention throughout the day in connection with his bodily functions, or continual supervision throughout the day in order to avoid substantial danger to himself or others, would be able to safely live alone.

Lots of things appear to have changed due to case law. I would assume you could have someone who decades ago would of been refused DLA or been assessed as LRC who would now get MRC or HRC due to case law clarifying how the legislation should be read, interpreted, implemented as far as what is meant by things like bodily function or constant supervision. I would assume this case law has been created often by appeals and tribunals rather than government changing interpretation, implementation policy on its own accord.

I am happy DLA is much broader than I thought. But it strikes me that the wording of what the care and mobility needs are for those receiving it could be misleading.

sparkycat2

Going back to ESA.
Is the income support disability premium ceasing to exist for JSA claimants. Because otherwise would not someone on JSA get more than someone on ESA WRAG?

JSA
Personal allowance £71
Disability premium (due to DLA) £30.35
Enhanced Disability premium (due to DLA) £14.80
Total £116.15

ESA
Personal allownace £71
Enhanced Disability premium (due to DLA) £14.80
Work-related Activity £28.15
Total £113.95

If someone is assessed as ESA WRAG and they appeal to try and get into ESA support, do they keep receiving or lose the Work-related Activity component £28.15 during the appeal process?

If someone is refused ESA outright and does not appeal or looses the appeal. I understand they can not claim Income Support on grounds of disability, only via JSA. By claiming JSA I assume they would be declaring themselves fit for work despite medical opinion to the contray and contrary to medical advice as to effect on health. They could also be refused JSA due to being unfit for work in which case they would not be eligible for any income replacement benefit and I assume woud not be eligible for hardship payments. Is the UK government not in breach of some kind of anti discrimination or human rights legislation.

mazza1985

I'm not sure to both but will try and research it today unless someone else knows the answer? I think if you are appealing ESA WRAG decision you get to keep WRAG component until tribunal. However don't quote me on that!

Morlock

sparkycat2 wrote: »

Actually I was thinking of if they were put in the WRAG and failed to comply with work related activities.

Statistics from May 2012:

"2.1.3 Average weekly amount of ESA sanction

Of the 11,410 ESA conditionality sanctions applied between 1st March 2011 and 28th February 2011, the average weekly amount of the ESA Work Related Activity Component (WRAC) sanctioned was £22.09 in comparison to the total WRAC of £26.75."

http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/esa_sanc/esa_sanc_may12.pdf

Which equates to between 50-100% of the Work Related Activity Component, with 65% losing 100% of that component.

However, the government have drawn up plans to increase that sanction to 70% of the entire ESA payment.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/sep/03/disabled-benefits-claimants-fines-work

JSA claimants will be liable for a 3 year sanction from 22 October 2012.

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/adviser/updates/jsa-sanction-changes/

So I doubt that the government will hesitate to introduce a 70% overall sanction for ESA claimants.

mazza1985

sparkycat2 wrote: »

If someone is refused ESA outright and does not appeal or looses the appeal. I understand they can not claim Income Support on grounds of disability, only via JSA. By claiming JSA I assume they would be declaring themselves fit for work despite medical opinion to the contray and contrary to medical advice as to effect on health. They could also be refused JSA due to being unfit for work in which case they would not be eligible for any income replacement benefit and I assume woud not be eligible for hardship payments. Is the UK government not in breach of some kind of anti discrimination or human rights legislation.

If you have a disability you can restrict the type of work you look for, it is covered by DDA

sunnyone

zzzLazyDaisy wrote: »

Many many quite severely disabled people live alone.

I have a friend who is bed bound. She is in the support group for ESA and gets DLA HRC/HRM. Her husband was her carer, but he died suddenly from a heart attack two years ago. She has carers coming in 4 times a day, to get her up, put her in her recliner chair, wash her and take her to the toilet and give her breakfast in the morning, the same in reverse in the evening, and also to get her lunch and evening meal.

Friends also come in and take her out in her wheelchair during the day, and stay over night from time to time, but many nights she is on her own.

She doesn't qualify for night care via social services, and DLA isn't enough to pay for night-time care. She uses a commode when she is left on her own.

She is in her late 40's, and it is incredibly difficult to find residential care for people of her age - though I doubt she would want it anyway.

DLA simply does not pay enough to cover the cost of 24hr care, no matter how much the person needs it. So people who live alone have to manage as best they can.

I couldnt survive with this amount of care, I get the same level of benefits as your friend but I need constant care 24/7, I need constant care both day and night which is why I get HRC/HRM.

The most severely disabled can not live alone nor even be left alone for any time yet they get the same benefit as the "severely disabled" who can live alone and manage with intimitant care, this is whats wrong with disability benefits especially with "people who need constant supervision to keep them safe" yet they are safe for years on end while living alone and not even having any "care" at all.

If you live alone and can manage you dont need 24/7 care, its common sense that if you can manage alone, you can manage alone! Thats not to say that they dont need some help but they cant claim to need what they have never ever needed or had.

sparkycat2

mazza1985 wrote: »

If you have a disability you can restrict the type of work you look for, it is covered by DDA

I assume you must be limited as to how far you can restrict the type of work you look for. I mean if the medical advice is they can not work and working would be detrimental to their health. I can not see the JobCenter+ agreeing to them only applying for jobs that require them to do absolutely nothing. Or say the mythical press a button job mentioned in the Despatches program about ATOS and ESA assessments. I would of thought there must be a point where JobCenter+ is saying you are inelligible for JSA due to level of incapablity.