This sort of thing annoys non disabled people

Dunroamin

BobQ wrote: »

Oh what a good point. Any malicious person, disgruntled neighbour, or ignorant fool should be able to stir up trouble for someone who has been assessed by an independent expert as having a disability.

Obviously, nobody should make malicious or dishonest reports.

However, it's interesting that you say that someone who's getting benefits has been "assessed by an independent expert" when the received opinion of those who've been rejected is that those doing the assessments are dishonest !!!!!!.

A certain lack of consistency there, perhaps?

krisskross

Dunroamin wrote: »

Obviously, nobody should make malicious or dishonest reports.

However, it's interesting that you say that someone who's getting benefits has been "assessed by an independent expert" when the received opinion of those who've been rejected is that those doing the assessments are dishonest !!!!!!.

A certain lack of consistency there, perhaps?

Now this really did make me laugh.

Our perception of a service is always whether it has given us the result we want and expect.

As for the fraud rates how on earth can this be assessed? We have as a starting point that everyone awarded the benefit is completely honest in their application. And that they continue to be honest when perhaps surgery, improved drug therapy or even a miracle improves their condition so they know they no longer meet the criteria.

I do not believe that this happens. We see far too many instances where people have cheated and lied to such an extent and for so long that they are prosecuted. How many others get away with it?

Those claiming and receiving disability benefits do themselves no favours by their blinkered attitude to the scale of the fraud and also by the indignation that anyone should report suspicions of possible fraud. Of course none of us could be 100% certain but then how many things in life can we be 100% certain of? In my view a reasonable suspicion is all that is needed.

krisskross

Errata wrote: »

It beats me how people know what benefits other people are on when they decide to report them.

The motobility cars are easy, the tax disc with disabled stamped across it plus the BB would incline one to think that person is receiving HRM.

sparkycat2

krisskross wrote: »

As for the fraud rates how on earth can this be assessed?

The DWP uses spot checks of samples because that is a scientific valid method. The spot check of DLA for example was of a random sample of 1200 claimants. The sample excluded those terminally ill and those who had been assessed less than 4 months before. Disability benefits have also become more difficult to claim over the years and are more regularly reassessed.

A issue with DLA is the distinction between fraud and error. With benefits there is a duty to promptly inform the DWP of any relevant change in circumstance. But for gradual health changes and fluctuating conditions the claimant is assumed to not be aware of exactly when they no longer became eligible or if their health is going to be better or worse then next day. Except when such improvements are blatantly obvious they say they can not walk and now are running marathons, etc... or when the claim or re-assessment claim is deceitful.

krisskross wrote: »

I do not believe that this happens. We see far too many instances where people have cheated and lied to such an extent and for so long that they are prosecuted. How many others get away with it?

Convictions for benefit fraud across all DWP benefits 2010-2011. 8,598 convictions, of which 1,304 got custodial sentences, of which 939 were suspended sentences. So 365 people went to prison.

krisskross wrote: »

Those claiming and receiving disability benefits do themselves no favours by their blinkered attitude to the scale of the fraud and also by the indignation that anyone should report suspicions of possible fraud. Of course none of us could be 100% certain but then how many things in life can we be 100% certain of? In my view a reasonable suspicion is all that is needed.

Phone in reports of fraud across all DWP benefits 2010-2011
253,708 reports phoned in a year, 695 a day

60,150 cases closed by Customer Compliance (Customer Compliance is part of the DWP, they have Customer Compliance teams that look at if the claimant is entitled to the benefit and receiving the correct amount)
Out of those cases an error was found in 8,053 cases

46,258 were referred to the Fraud Investigation Service
Out of those cases 27,299 cases closed by the Fraud Investigation Service.
Out of those cases 3,360 resulted in a benefit sanction. (all admitted or found guilty fraud cases result in benefit sanction)

So 253,708 reports of fraud to the hotline resulted in 3,360 benefit sanctions a 1.3% strike rate as far as catching fraud. Add the cases where error was found and you are up to 11,413 a 4.5% strike rate as far as reducing benefit payments.

The public perception of fraud appears to be massively higher than it is. The vast majority of the time they are looking at innocent people and wrongly suspecting and accusing them of fraud to the DWP.

It must be particularly distressing for vulnerable genuinely ill/disabled people to find that their neighbors or possibly "friends" see them as criminals and may despise them, who do they trust or turn to for help, who is looking at them with suspicion rather than compassion.

sparkycat2

Dunroamin wrote: »

DWP has every reason to minimise fraud reports, which is why it does so.

The DWP fraud estimates are based on extrapolating from spot checks of random samples because that is a scientific valid method. For DLA the random sample excludes those terminally ill and those who have been assessed less than 4 months before.

The DWP has a ever expanding anti fraud department.

Attempted fraud detect at initial claim attempt

Cross-departmental data-matching

Risk based tools data matching and data mining across the public sector and third party data to identify inconsistencies.

Identity fraud unit

Risk profiling

High fraud area targeting, everyone claiming in the area checked by mobile regional task forces.

Disproportionate loss groups identifying and targeting high fraud benefits and claimant conditions, etc..

The cleansing of existing claims, that is they trawl through existing claims subjecting them to data checks and looking for inconsistencies, etc...

The DWP also contract private sector payment by results based on data analysis and cross checking with credit ratings, etc...

and oh yes the benefit fraud hotline.

insured

I cannot see how anyone can make an accurate judgement of someones financial situation and decide whether they are/are not entitled to benefits.
I became disabled some years ago and sometimes cannot leave the house for days on end. However, no one other than close family members know how bad my health is. Even friends, let alone neighbours do not know. Quite simply I do not leave the house when I am at my worst.
What neighbours and friends see is someone who appears to work for themselves doing professional work and who is comfortably off. I also own a house worth nearly £800,000, and it isn't a palace. It is a modest 4 bed semi in an affluent neighbourhood.
I used to claim IB/ESA before it became means tested but I also took out income protection insurance. No one knows I claim either of these things because I tell them I am working for myself at home. So why should I not claim these? According to some posters on here, because I appear affluent, three kids in private school, 2-3 foreign holidays per year, means I am not ill and I do not need the money
They know I have a "bad back" as I fractured my back in three places when I was younger.
They do not know how many days I spend in bed because of illness, how many holidays I have had to cancel because I have taken a bad turn.
Some posters here appear to know everything about their neighbours and make judgements about whether they are cheating the system. I have no idea how they know such things.

margaretclare wrote: »

And people wonder why we English get somewhat p***ed off when we read things like this.

.

I am not sure what being English/Scottish/Polish/Eskimo has do with this discussion.
Oh hold on a minute, I forgot.
All of the poles in this country are either taking our young people's jobs or they are benefit cheats.
All muslims are terrorists.
How do I know this, because the Daily Mail has told me!
First of all it was Oswald Mosely peddling bigotry and hatred against the Jews in the 30s, the National Front took over in the 60s and 70s against blacks and Asians, and now the BNP have taken over with bigotry and hatred against muslims and Eastern Europeans.
This comment sounds exactly like the old bigot Gordon Brown had a conversation with in the last election.

pipkin71

krisskross wrote: »

As for the fraud rates how on earth can this be assessed? We have as a starting point that everyone awarded the benefit is completely honest in their application. And that they continue to be honest when perhaps surgery, improved drug therapy or even a miracle improves their condition so they know they no longer meet the criteria.

This is true in some cases.

I was awarded DLA indefinitely.

Following some new treatment, I informed the DSS as there was a possibility of improvement. The indefinite award was changed to a year one.

As it happens, there was no improvement and I have just been awarded again following renewal, still at the same rate.

General consensus on a disability forum was that I should not inform the DSS incase they removed or reduced my benefit but, my point has always been, if there is improvement, report it, as someone is sure to report if there is a decrease in condition.

It should work both ways.

Dunroamin

sparkycat2 wrote: »

The DWP fraud estimates are based on extrapolating from spot checks of random samples because that is a scientific valid method. For DLA the random sample excludes those terminally ill and those who have been assessed less than 4 months before.

The DWP has a ever expanding anti fraud department.

Attempted fraud detect at initial claim attempt

Cross-departmental data-matching

Risk based tools data matching and data mining across the public sector and third party data to identify inconsistencies.

Identity fraud unit

Risk profiling

High fraud area targeting, everyone claiming in the area checked by mobile regional task forces.

Disproportionate loss groups identifying and targeting high fraud benefits and claimant conditions, etc..

The cleansing of existing claims, that is they trawl through existing claims subjecting them to data checks and looking for inconsistencies, etc...

The DWP also contract private sector payment by results based on data analysis and cross checking with credit ratings, etc...

and oh yes the benefit fraud hotline.

Thank you for cut and pasting the ways in which the DWP try to identify fraud although this doesn't show that they are successful or that they know the true extent of it.

rogerblack

I'm speechless that someone can claim DWP is intending to downplay fraud, with the statements made by ministers, and how much they'd love a '20% of people on DLA are fakers' headline that stands up.

krisskross

insured wrote: »

I cannot see how anyone can make an accurate judgement of someones financial situation and decide whether they are/are not entitled to benefits.
I became disabled some years ago and sometimes cannot leave the house for days on end. However, no one other than close family members know how bad my health is. Even friends, let alone neighbours do not know. Quite simply I do not leave the house when I am at my worst.
What neighbours and friends see is someone who appears to work for themselves doing professional work and who is comfortably off. I also own a house worth nearly £800,000, and it isn't a palace. It is a modest 4 bed semi in an affluent neighbourhood.
I used to claim IB/ESA before it became means tested but I also took out income protection insurance. No one knows I claim either of these things because I tell them I am working for myself at home. So why should I not claim these? According to some posters on here, because I appear affluent, three kids in private school, 2-3 foreign holidays per year, means I am not ill and I do not need the money
They know I have a "bad back" as I fractured my back in three places when I was younger.
They do not know how many days I spend in bed because of illness, how many holidays I have had to cancel because I have taken a bad turn.
Some posters here appear to know everything about their neighbours and make judgements about whether they are cheating the system. I have no idea how they know such things.


I am not sure what being English/Scottish/Polish/Eskimo has do with this discussion.
Oh hold on a minute, I forgot.
All of the poles in this country are either taking our young people's jobs or they are benefit cheats.
All muslims are terrorists.
How do I know this, because the Daily Mail has told me!
First of all it was Oswald Mosely peddling bigotry and hatred against the Jews in the 30s, the National Front took over in the 60s and 70s against blacks and Asians, and now the BNP have taken over with bigotry and hatred against muslims and Eastern Europeans.
This comment sounds exactly like the old bigot Gordon Brown had a conversation with in the last election.
Infact sometime ago, you were found lacking in the truth department in your own claim for AA. Not only have you admitted not reporting a change in your condition (you removed this post after you were found out) but you have encouraged others to lie on their form. https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/10382371#Comment_10382371
Are you Polish?

I am astounded that you would trawl through someone's post history to find a thread that is over 4 years old.