MSE News: Charity calls for council tax reform

CTA_2

lincroft1710 wrote: »

Good question. But you really need to ask the politicians. In fact why not ask your MP? Although I'd doubt you would get a very logical reply.

It was more a rhetorical question...

Why would i ask my MP...we do not have this system at present?

mr_jrt

CTA wrote: »

Why do we need two taxes on income? It would be more efficient to roll it all up into one tax rather than have two collection mechanisms for taxing the same income twice.

This is a fair point.

However I believe that decoupling it into a local and a national part would enable councils to manage their budgets and offer enticements or disincentives to live in particular areas if need be. There are legitimate arguments to be had about decentralising funding versus centralising it (i.e. reducing national income tax but increasing local income tax, etc.)

diamonds

lincroft1710 wrote: »

Any new system won't please everybody and is bound to disadvantage some

Education & health need to be unfragmented to a national standard and body...these two bodies alone can change a society, differences by postcode ARE not acceptable.

Legislation should go back to two legislative acts coevering both in laymans terms where people can enforce their rights & where person v public comes into dispute a national independent investigatory body similar to dury duty with access to legal assistance in understanding the law and how a individual assessed and made a decision based on law.

Public sector workers not being made to explain their decision to a tribunal & represented by another official or employed legal professional means public sector, how many cases have you seen a public sector worker charged with such failures and held accountable in court ?.

Even when a tribunal or civil court says that individual/s body was wrong in how it applied legisaltion to the case in hand, its a criminal act to not do your public service job duties as per legislation.

We live in a part democracy, not a full one.

bigjeeze

I bought my house 16 years ago for £132K - it is now worth approx £500k - but I am unemployed and have no chance of getting a job. My wife works so we are not entitled to any benefits. How does your charity square this circle? My house is only worht £500K if I sell it - I don't want to sell it. Why should I pay mopre. The real solution to this problem is to go back to the poll tax which mean t that ALL eaners and users of the services paid a fair amount into the system. As it is there are 3 living in this house and I pay £250 per month but as has been pointed out - I don't get any mnore for my money than the bloke in the next street paying only 120 per month . Tax everybody fairly - make the multiple occupnacy houselholds who use more of the services pay a fair wack.

bigjeeze

mr_jrt wrote: »

...and therein lies the crux of the issue of taxation. Apologies for the misuse of the terms (and please take this as a generalisation and not a targeted comment), but essentially it's socialism versus capitalism. The better-off can afford to pay more, but want to pay only for what they need so as to pay less, and the less well-of cannot afford to pay for what they need, so need subsidy.

In a nutshell, flat-rate taxes are disproportionately unfair for those on below-average incomes, whilst progressive taxes are unfair for those on above-average incomes. The difference as I see it is that the better-off still remain better-off when taxed more, so that makes it the lesser of two evils in my eyes.

Council tax attempts to work around the issues of a flat tax by introducing the bands that assume that those who spend more on their housing can afford to pay more tax. This however is not true - case in point, me. I decided that I don't spend much on luxuries and entertainment so I could afford to pay more for my housing and get somewhere nicer. To reward me for this decision I get to pay ~£30/mo more as my flat is in band C.

It also then has to deal with those on very low incomes with council tax benefit, and the Byzantine system required to administrate that. A local income tax is cheaper to administer and is inherently fairer, so solves both problems at once.

But you still don't afddress the issue that I have which is that my proporty has gone up in value but my income has gone down - in your eyes i should have to sell my proporty to pay the council tax!! If thst isn't regressive I don't know what is. Whatever way you cut it we should all pay a fair amount not based on income or worth but on necessity.

diamonds

CTA wrote: »

but why should a family living in a more valuable home pay more for equal services?

Exacty, mortgage free or not everyone earning over a certain income should pay a set amount (£50) much much lower than CT rates, its a individual choice to access non core services, but core services like street lighting,social work & refuse/recycling collection need paid for, pay for that you get access to non core services. Education should be national not local. NHS comes from income tax so we dont need to apply that to homes/CT, except we do as the NHS moved healthcare to local authorities!

Students could easily pay £25 a month as a 50% discount per head, £25 for many students is a night in the pub, giving up one per month wont bankrupt them. They can take cheap loans to pay a contibution to local services where they study given central government gives loans.

I would have paid £25 a month to my local authority when I was a student & easily £50 a month working, but CT at £150 a month is crippling ontop of £320 rent, on minimum wage its not sustainable, there are properties around me with 6-8 students paying nothing per month & thats £50x 8 = £400 a month contibution paid by as all at CT rates to support students, then add council tax/housing benefit for those on benefits, low incomes/tax credits.

Students on loans should pay £25 & working tax free at a certain level the full £50.

Disabled adaptions or those with people living with because of long term health conditions should not have to pay anything until a certain income.

DWP, CT/HB, tax credits/HMRC really need to find better systems and passports intergrated, even Universal Benefit will not sort that out as the structure of all government bodies remain.

If one as a disabled/long term health issues person have even a owned outright 4 bedroom house 1 mine, 1 guest, 1 workroom/home office & 1 bedroom for even a part time carer even working from home 16 hours a week with FULL DLA/Care rates the discount on CT is 0% unless a adaption is there.

They all pass budget contstraints to each other, not working together, spending our money administrating the dulplication of it all on each body. Add to that public sector pensions for the last 50 years & no wonder we are bankrupt !

gac290967

As a council tax payer and every other kind of tax that this country has, I feel that again the hard working citizens of this country are being penalised for exactly that, hard working. The town where I live has around 8000 population of that there are around 700 long term social benefit families. A local factory had to employ Polish people, around 200 because there wasn't anyone available to work from the town. Have we never heard of get what you pay for? I'm sorry but I don't see why these scroungers should sit at home, get their rent paid, council tax paid, help with everything from clothing to utility bills, get free dental treatment and optometrist treatment, yet never contribute a penny to the system. Surely the easy way to manage this would be, you pay in you are entitled to withdraw, easy to setup and run. Why should I work my Bxxxx off to pay for other lazy layabouts to sit and smoke and drink all day as a profession. Get a grip Britain or there wont be a country to live in shortly.

diamonds

Scotland is moving forward with national police & fire = savings, the ending of defragmentation of services is taking steps up here & what did the UK HMCR do ? Well.. "if you are now national and not local we will have £25-30 million in VAT not returning to you, you will be the ONLY UK fire & police body in this position" Yes thats fair is it not :rollseyes:

As I said before each body robs the other in the fragmentation stakes.

Save a estimated £1.7 billion pounds over 15 years & HMCR keep an estimated £25-30 million each year from the new national service & that came out the Scottish budget.

No rewards for making things better frontline or financially, just reprimands - welcome to Westminister/UK bodies common sense & is it any wonder the SNP want a independence vote when UK bodies do such negative actions for such positive behaviour & outcomes.

Those in positions of power could learn from up North & reward such public body actions.

I personally slated every MSP & Scotia Minister for their first term for not addressing the fragmentation of peoples rights, services & the costs involved in a email to all them for following the UK standard over the four year term, the SNP health minister was quoting my email numerous times in a tv interview prior to the May 2010 landslide on STV (Scotland's ITV) about such.

Next MSP/Minister Macskill took Scotland's emergency services funded by local authorities & took action to reconstruct them as a national body in this day and age of technology, its the first of many going this way this is the test pilot.

10% of the 5 million population in Scotland is in public body positions & independence or in the UK that is not sustainable for Scotland's budgets, two of the highest spenders per dept staff 1) local authorities revenues dept (council tax/housing benefit/allowances) & ironically the dept that mostly deals with them local authority departments validating HB/a & CT claims the 2) UK's DWP.

One hopes SNP remove council tax to a fairer system based on local contribution based on income caps as Scotland as UK cant remove DWP as a UK legislative gov body.

10% population in government body employment - shocking really the cost of such to us all in UK.

diamonds

Credit-Crunched wrote: »

Council tax based on income?

That sounds like a great idea, lets call it income tax.

Ok so let me get this straight, myself and my partner live in a 3 bed house, generate minimal waste and earn £60k per annum, I should pay a percentage of my income to the council.

This is on top of my 40% income tax and 40% tax on interest.

This is on top of my huge petorl bill to commute to work everyday.

My neighbours with 3 children, 6 black bags a week, on benefits so household repairs paid for by the council should pay LESS than me?

So after my significant contribution via NI, Income Tax, VAT, Fuel Tax, Road Tax and minimal burden (no nhs as private health care, 1 black bin bag a week and house maintained myself) I should foot more of a bill than the family paying in nothing and taking out everything?

I do agree I should pay more tax (to fund the needy and genuinly vulnerable people, not the lazy and workshy) however please dont sting me again through an unfair percetange taxation on my home.

Exactly, so £50 a month capped per adult (18+) over a certain income, £50 for you, £50 if the wife works, £50 for each child "living at home" where their wages are over £100 a week but under tax free income, local service tax deducted before tax paye send direct to the local authority, rather than another dept of a gov body "allocating" such with admin running costs, paye direct to local authority.

Students pay £25.

Vunerable pay £0 capped to a higher level than the rest of society caps.

DWP pay your £50 per house where no one works and is on benefits.

Even in Scotland alone by population local authorities would be not be chasing unpaid "debts" every year & have a good income, tax deducted at paye at source means income is always available.

Sustainability has never been a UK word, for hundreds of years we just stole countries & charged tax & have kept spending like we are such a empire, whilst defragmenting and spending more & passing unsustainable costs to taxpayers privatising everything & local authorities with council tax, then add to that of late the banks we own (but dont??).

diamonds

molerat wrote: »

Personally I would love CT to be income based as I currently pay more per month in CT than I do in Income Tax. It seems that Alex & the Raving Loony Jock Party want to do it at about 3-4.5% so that would see me quids in by at least £1000 pa but won't until after the independence vote as it may sink their chances of winning.

I would also like to see road tax shifted onto fuel making it a green & fair tax which would also be a personal win

I'd like to see safer roads built & repaired or road tax go, why DVLA get it all is beyond belief. DVLA should give it to Scotland, NI, Wales & England transport ministers as per where the address it purchased & transferring states to a new adress means a rebate from one state to the other for the outstanding paid period, but then thats too much like common sense for Westminister.