Grade II Listed: to buy or not to buy?

Gordon1978

OK, so I've found wonderful house to modernise (in London, on budget at c.£300k). It's a probate sale being handled by executors of a will. Wife and I made a reasonable offer which was accepted. A few days later I established that it was actually Grade II Listed, something was not mentioned by the Estate Agent and I suspect may not have even been known by the vendor (dead owners children).

Big problem: I've now inspected the house with the Conservation Officer to establish whether we could see any works that have been done without Listed Buildings Consent. It's a big list:
1) Roof has been lowered by three bricks resulting in the loss of listed 'gauged arches' over first floor windows. Style has been changed from Hip to Pitched. Material changed from Natural to Synthetic Slate. In short we'd need to remove the roof entirely: reinstate the 3 or 4 layers of brickwork needed to put the roof back at it's original height and reinstate the 'gauged arches' over the windows. Put in new timbers to support a Hip style roof and reslate using natural slate. CAN ANYONE TELL ME ROUGHLY WHAT THIS SHOULD COST for a 10m x 5m roof.

2) UPVc windows and doors have been installed thoughout. ROUGHLY what do you think we're talking about to have timber:
- Sash x 7
- opener x 2
- external doors x 2

3) An unconsented 8m2 extension of red brick instead of London mixed stock again with synthetic slate has been erected without consent and will need removing and rebuilding in character with the rest of building. How much should we be talking about to remove the existing 8m2 extension and to rebuild a 16m2 (4m x 4m with two sides attached to current building) slate pitched roof shell with openings for 1 x french door, 2 of 1m x 1.7m windows and 1 x barn door opening. Just talking about shell cost.

Those are the big items there's a very long list of 'small' stuff: fireplaces, boundary railings, cornice......... keen to understand what others think is realistic before I renegotiate the purchse price!

If anyone has any experience of renovating 'low value' Listed Buildings and working with Conservation Officers please do share any advice / experiences (good or bad!)

Thanks

Gordon

SG27

Sounds like a total nightmare! We were put off buying a listing building after we found a fireplace had been replaced without LBC. It would have been more hassle and expense than we were prepared to accept.

Can't help with the costs but sounds a lot!

*Robin*

You need to take a specialist builder round for a close look, to get a realistic estimate on that lot!

Then either negotiate down very hard on the asking price, or do what most of the rest of us would - RUN AWAY - very fast!

..Unless, of course, you happen to be a recent anonymous lottery winner?

20400keith

I live in a listed building that was derelict when I bought it. Repairs can be a bit of a hassle, depending on the stance of the Conservation Officer - listed building consent is applied for and considered separately from planning permission. However, I've managed to do everything I wanted to without upsetting the Council or incurring too much additional cost. I even got a small grant towards replacing the roof.

A benefit, if you intend to extend, is that extensions to listed buildings plus fixtures and fittings are exempt from VAT - I saved many thousands on my new kitchen.

namecheck

Definitely a situation where head needs to rule heart.

It could well be a money-pit, and lead to a lot of stress.

As 20400keith has pointed out, a lot can depend on the views of the conservation officer. Some can be relatively easy to deal with, others can make life VERY difficult.

sevenhour

20400keith wrote: »

I live in a listed building that was derelict when I bought it. Repairs can be a bit of a hassle, depending on the stance of the Conservation Officer - listed building consent is applied for and considered separately from planning permission. However, I've managed to do everything I wanted to without upsetting the Council or incurring too much additional cost. I even got a small grant towards replacing the roof.

A benefit, if you intend to extend, is that extensions to listed buildings plus fixtures and fittings are exempt from VAT - I saved many thousands on my new kitchen.

The rules change on the 1st of October and VAT will no longer be exempt on listed buildings.

Yorkie1

I am not an expert but I'd have thought you'd be looking at well over £5K just for the windows / doors. Probably nearer £10K for the roof? Possibly over £10K for the extension?

NB. Do the sellers know that you've been round with the Conservation Officer? If they don't, you'll need to let them know because they can't now offer an indemnity policy to cover council enforcement for the breaches of the rules to either you or another prospective buyer.

leveller2911

sevenhour wrote: »

The rules change on the 1st of October and VAT will no longer be exempt on listed buildings.

VAT on Listed Buildings was/is a nightmare and extensions aside which indeed were free from VAT the uestion of VAT depended on whether the work to be carried out was classed as maintenance (vat payable) or alterations (vat free).It was a perverse rule charging vat to mintain a Listed Building whilst be vat free for altering a Listed Building.

Having worked with numerous Conservation officers I concluded around 30% are excellant and flexible to an extent.The other 70% have a huge ego, full of their own importance.Many now get their guidance from English Heritage who prefer to see windows repaired rather than replaced. Stupid idea IMO as new windows,doors etc can be faithfully reproduced but I've known them to insist on keeping "original" windows( 60yrs old maximum) in 17th Century properties which never worked properly even after being "repaired" at great expense.

I have a passion for working on old properties but I would never buy a Grade I or II house ,in general they are money pits.


To the OP,
I've just made/fitted 7 Boxframe sash windows, single glazed,Sapele hardwood, all new inside lining,late regancy architraves etc for £12,500 +vat.
Traditional casement windows are cheaper,I can give an accurate idea from some photo,s

Ivana_Tinkle

Yikes! Scary stuff! Would there be any mileage in establishing when the house was listed and when the works were done, just to check that they have all been done illegally? I'm guessing that if it's a renovation project none of this stuff is particularly recent and obviously you can't be forced to put back anything that was done before the listing. That's a bit of a shot in the dark though! I'd have thought the house is pretty much unsellable if all those things really need to be rectified - you'd have to be lowering your offer by a very significant amount.

Gordon1978

Wow some v interesting points, thank you.

I've done some rough calculations and think we're talking in the area of £75,000 for restoration works that we wouldn't have otherwise done (example we'd have redone the kitchen extension anyway so it seems harsh to hit them for the full bill on that, it is they're inheritance afterall. Windows, Roof, Fireplaces..... tough: those works are a direct liability that result from their parents bad judgment, not to deduct those costs would mean paying significantly over the odds for the property: it's nice but not special!).

Interesting point re. indemnity insurance: they were invited to the meeting (choose not to come) and copies of notes have been circulaed to solicitors etc. Seems to put us in a very strong bargaining position then.........

Zero rated VAT would have been handy - just missed out on that!

20400Keith: very interesting point about Conservation Officer. We were both cautious of each other initially but as the 90mins passed I think we connected in our thinking (our tastes both being sympathetic matching architectures rather than divisive modern attachements for extensions). Interesting that you point out the importance of that relationship, thank you.

Thanks again to all. I think we'll do our sums carefully and offer 'asking price - 7.5% - cost of restoration' and do a take it or leave it. As I say, it's a nice place but it's certainly not amazing and I'm happy to put the hours in so long as it doesn't cost us more than it's worth!

melanzana

Best of luck with your venture.

Just a point, if the vendors weren't aware of the listed status, and all that will cost you to put right, are they prepared to seriously reduce the price?

I would certainly ask. Not everyone would take on such a task, but at the right price given the reconstruction and re instating etc. it might be worth it.