Feel terrible!

krlyr

Jojo_the_Tightfisted wrote: »

But a Great Dane can jump an eight foot fence easily enough if they want to. For example, if there was a strange cat in the area.

Many dogs could jump fencing, or dig out of it, or chew/break their way through it. Do all dog owners need to have 10' tall, solid concrete fencing that's sunk 10' down into the ground too to deem their garden secure?

I also have to agree with Welshwoofs, looking back - if the dog wanted the cat dead, it could have killed it in an instant, or at least it would have taken more than one person to convince it to let go. I can't win tug of war with a toy with my Rottie girl who's probably half the size of OP's dog, at least, and that's without the adrenaline from a prey drive that's kicked in. I'd probably say the chase instinct kicked in, the dog grabbed the cat and then the cat freaked out majorly - dog didn't know what to do, held on until the owner pulled the cat out of its mouth and that was it, IMO. Great Dane vs a cat and the only injuries are cat scratches to the OP, I would doubt the dog's intentions to kill in the first place.

Jojo_the_Tightfisted

krlyr wrote: »

Many dogs could jump fencing, or dig out of it, or chew/break their way through it. Do all dog owners need to have 10' tall, solid concrete fencing that's sunk 10' down into the ground too to deem their garden secure?

I also have to agree with Welshwoofs, looking back - if the dog wanted the cat dead, it could have killed it in an instant, or at least it would have taken more than one person to convince it to let go. I can't win tug of war with a toy with my Rottie girl who's probably half the size of OP's dog, at least, and that's without the adrenaline from a prey drive that's kicked in. I'd probably say the chase instinct kicked in, the dog grabbed the cat and then the cat freaked out majorly - dog didn't know what to do, held on until the owner pulled the cat out of its mouth and that was it, IMO. Great Dane vs a cat and the only injuries are cat scratches to the OP, I would doubt the dog's intentions to kill in the first place.

I wasn't attacking the OP. I was remarking that it is possible to get over a six foot fence quite easily.

Personally, I have a high brick wall surrounding my back garden. So if there were to be a dog here, it's less likely it would be able to scale it to get out - but one cat and a fox have been able to, so even that isn't 100% secure.


It's difficult, but dog owners are responsible for their dogs wherever they are and I didn't want anyone to think a six foot fence is impossible for a dog to get over.



I do think that the cat had a very lucky escape though - had he opted to shake when holding her a bit harder, the outcome could have been so much worse. So I'd consider cat proofing the top of the wall more if I were in that situation. But I'm not.

Fire_Fox

Realistically the dog is going to do this again given half a chance, what he has or has not done in the past doesn't guarantee future actions. Even if he doesn't intend to kill a cat all he needs to do is get it the wrong way or press a little too hard and there is a serious injury.

The dog has to be stopped from getting out just in case his prey drive kicks in even harder next time. This doesn't necessarily need a higher fence, just dog proofed fencing. If this can also discourage cats so much the better. This is not simply for the protection of cats, it is for the protectionn of the owner and the dog from being PTS.

The reality is good owners make mistakes or do silly things, all of us. I can't understand why you would introduce a cat to this dog given you already knew it was a bit funny with dogs and cats outside the home. Maybe having the kitten in the house has triggered something. If you really thought this would never happen again you wouldn't be separating your dog and your kitten when you are not there to be supervised.

Sorry but I don't think cat owners can be expected to keep the cats out of the garden, you can't keep all cats indoors and many owners in the area will be unaware of this incident. Plus there are feral cats that nobody is in control of and other wild animals wandering about. Hopefully the adjacent neighbour will want to contribute to making the adjoining fencing cat/ dog proof, that seems most fair to me.

Notsosharp

OP, you did say that you KNEW your dog was a bit funny with cats and you KNEW the neighbours had a cat that does go out?

Surely, you should have/could have cat proofed your garden before this incident?

There's a local lost and found group I'm part of on facebook and there has been several people on there that have lost their cats due to a certain dog attacking them whilst in the dog's garden and out of it.

These cats have been shaken and come home with detached retinas and severe brain injuries due to being attacked by this dog. Both times they came home but they had to be PTS due to the damage caused by this dog. I don't think any cat deserves this purely because they made the mistake of wondering into someones garden!

The people who these cats belonged to were absolutely devastated over what had happened to these cats.

I own cats and dogs, if I ever have a dog that didn't like cats there's no way I'd have a cat. My mum had a friend whose dog hated cats outside but was apparently fine with their "own" cat. This woman came home to their cat torn to shreds by this dog. I'm not saying your dog will do this to your cat but I wouldn't be complacent either.

If I had a dog that didn't like cats I would do everything within my capabilities to ensure that my garden was cat proofed.

Unfortunately cats will roam, they will enter people's gardens and I'm of the opinion that part of being a responsible owner of any pet is taking into account that other people won't always be as careful as you are and you should try and account for every possibility.

I own cats and they do roam and please don't call me cruel for letting them do this, they're taken in overnight, I tell the neighbours to feel free to squirt them with water if they don't want them in their garden I don't mind. I'm not comfortable with my cats going into other people's gardens but there's not a lot I can do to stop them, it's part of a cat's nature same as it's part of some dog's nature to attack cats, I'm not going round demanding these dogs be PTS so why say it's ok for a cat to be killed for entering someone's garden where a dog doesn't like cats?

But if I had a neighbour whose dog didn't like cats not doing everything they could to keep cats out of their garden and my cats then got attacked by said dog I would not be happy in the least. If I had such a dog I would consider cat owners and do this and I think maybe that it should be expected of other people.

The reason dogs are more controlled then cats is dogs have the potential to do more, real significant harm then a cat. Bear in mind that dogs have more protection because of this expectation then does a cat. Cats might have a right to roam under the law but the downside of this is they also have less protection then a dog does. If a dog was going around attacking other dogs then eventually something would be done, not so with cats.

What dog owners tend to forget is that to many people their cats are just as important to them as their dogs and being attacked by a dog is a horrible death for a much loved family pet.

krlyr

Notsosharp wrote: »

Unfortunately cats will roam, they will enter people's gardens and I'm of the opinion that part of being a responsible owner of any pet is taking into account that other people won't always be as careful as you are and you should try and account for every possibility.

I know my dogs aren't good with cats and I know there are cats down my road. I've made my garden secure enough for my dogs, which I chose to own, but that's where my responsibility ends.
It's a bit like saying anyone who chooses to not have children should still child-proof their garden incase the local kids decide to climb in and play in the pond or garage. My house and garden are my property, I will cater to my pets. Sadly the law allows cats to roam but if we're talking about morals, I don't see how it is morally right to knowingly allow a pet to wander into other people's property and cause mess, damage and stress to their own pets - there are dogs who may not kill a cat but may find it stressful to chase one out of the garden, or pet rabbits who may be afraid or even injured by a cat when out in their run, plus there's potential for humans to get injured by a roaming cat or have allergies set off because a neighbourhood cat had been snoozing on their garden chairs. Would you even know if your cat had killed some child's pet rabbit? Would you say it's OK, because it's nature? Blame the owner of the rabbit for not cat-proofing their garden?
It's the whole burglars sueing house owners for injurying them during a breakin or whatever, the whole blame culture. Since when has someone's home stopped being their private property, I can understand noise pollution and a messy garden encouraging rats into the neighbour's houses etc. being something you have to consider but since when should dog owners have to cat-proof their fences, or keep their dogs on-lead in their own garden, or muzzle them at all times, or go and physically patrol their garden for cats every time they want to use their own garden? One feature that played a big part in getting this house was its 120' garden that is perfect for the dogs. I'm not going to not use my own garden because someone decides that their cat has the right to use every private property in the neighbourhood as its playground.

Notsosharp wrote: »

I own cats and they do roam and please don't call me cruel for letting them do this, they're taken in overnight, I tell the neighbours to feel free to squirt them with water if they don't want them in their garden I don't mind. I'm not comfortable with my cats going into other people's gardens but there's not a lot I can do to stop them, it's part of a cat's nature same as it's part of some dog's nature to attack cats, I'm not going round demanding these dogs be PTS so why say it's ok for a cat to be killed for entering someone's garden where a dog doesn't like cats? But if I had a neighbour whose dog didn't like cats not doing everything they could to keep cats out of their garden and my cats then got attacked by said dog I would not be happy in the least. If I had such a dog I would consider cat owners and do this and I think maybe that it should be expected of other people.

The reason dogs are more controlled then cats is dogs have the potential to do more, real significant harm then a cat. Bear in mind that dogs have more protection because of this expectation then does a cat. Cats might have a right to roam under the law but the downside of this is they also have less protection then a dog does. If a dog was going around attacking other dogs then eventually something would be done, not so with cats.

It is/was many animal's nature to roam. Hamsters would wander miles overnight yet we're happy to stick them in a plastic/metal tank less than a metre squared. How many dogs would stay put if you left the garden gate/front door open? Birds migrate miles, even halfway around the world, yet we keep pet birds in cages or aviaries. Why is it so appalling to put the same legal responsibilities onto cat owners? Latchkey dogs used to be a thing of the norm, but the world changes and it became inconvenient, dangerous to others and so on so the laws and attitudes changed, I would like to see the same thing happen with cats. If they're that unable to adapt to domesticated life, maybe they don't belong in our society any more?
Yes, it may be nature for dogs to attack cats. I also hear of many cat owners saying their cat is bullied by the local cats - most people want a solution to that, not just to be told "it's nature". It's also nature for dogs to wander around town if the door was left open but that isn't legal either - even a friendly dog that posed no harm of biting anyone or anything may still foul in public or other people's gardens, may cause an RTA and so on. I cannot let my dogs wander around as they please, I have to contain them to my garden or a lead, I don't get why cat owners are exempt from any kind of control. It's not a black and white "cats roam free or they're cooped up bored indoors" either - many housecats are well stimulated and very happy, but if not, the cat owner should be the one going to the expense of a safe cat run, cat-proofing their garden to keep the cat in, etc., not the local dog owners having to be the ones going to the trouble of keeping someone else's cat safe.

Notsosharp wrote: »

What dog owners tend to forget is that to many people their cats are just as important to them as their dogs and being attacked by a dog is a horrible death for a much loved family pet.

I don't forget. I quite like cats, would own one if it were practical. I know they're important to their owners, I don't wish that death upon them. What I don't like is that, somehow, in many cat owner's eyes I have to bear responsibility for their choice to get a pet. I am legally obliged to make sure my pet dogs do not impose on the neighbours by having suitable fencing, not allowing them to be a noise nuisance, not allowing them to be a health & safety problem (so control them if they are aggressive, clean up after them both on walks and in my garden so EH aren't around telling me off, keeping them out of roads, etc). I do not expect the locals to go and pick up my dogs' poo for me, I don't expect my neighbours to provide me with suitable fencing on the boundary solely for my benefit, I do not expect to be able to open my front door and pack the dogs out to the park across the road because it's more convenient than taking them for a walk. I chose to get pets, I am responsible for them 100%. Why do cat owners not think this applies to them, even morally if not legally? Why do dog owners have to consider cats, but cat owners don't have to consider the dogs?
As I said on another post, why all the venom towards the drivers who hit cats on the road, or to the dog owners with cat-unfriendly dogs? Unless these acts are commited intentionally, e.g. swerving to get a cat or setting a dog on a cat in public, as far as I see it, it is the cat owner who is responsible for the cat's health/life, many seem to like to shift the blame to others when they could have prevented injury or death by containing their cat to a safe environment, be it a house, a cat run or a cat-proofed garden. I would feel sad, but I will not have a cat's death on my conscience when it was not me who decided to let it fend for itself.

mammyof7

BECKIN1507 wrote: »

OP how are your wounds and your dogs? Cat scratches can be nasty. Also I know you're trying your very best for it not to happen but just incase it does the best thing to do is throw cold water at the dog. I know at the time it feels like you won't have time but it is usually quicker as it shocks the dog which makes it stop. When dogs are in fight mode they feel no pain, and no shouting, screaming or hitting the dog will help.

Healing nicely thank you . Hopefully nothing like this will happen again but I will certainly keep that in mind.

mammyof7

The reality is good owners make mistakes or do silly things, all of us. I can't understand why you would introduce a cat to this dog given you already knew it was a bit funny with dogs and cats outside the home. Maybe having the kitten in the house has triggered something. If you really thought this would never happen again you wouldn't be separating your dog and your kitten when you are not there to be supervised.

Ok, I can see where you are coming from so should maybe explain further.... Before we got our kitten the dog had never ever come face to face with cat. Yes she had seen them while out on walks, sat on fences etc... but had never personally interacted with one.

When we decided to get the kitten, we didn't just go out on a whim and buy him. We spoke to lots of people and looked up all information that we could find on intergrating them, we also had my husbands parents (total cat people) lined up to take the kitten if things did,nt work out.

When the cat first came, I will admit the dog was not happy at all. However I totally expected this as realistically she didn,t have a clue who or what this "invader" in her home was. For safetys sake we even had a small dog cage for the kitten (when we were out/bed etc). We started with small meetings with the dog wearing her lead and muzzle and built these up until we felt safe to let her have actual contact with the cat.

Over the next few weeks we perservered and went from this to cage gone/ animals sleeping next to each other and dog washing the cat!:j:j.

Maybe we HAVE become blase about leaving them together and this is why they are now being separated whilst we are out. I DO trust the dog with MY cat, however as I have said before it is better to be safe than sorry. Probably in time I will feel better about leaving them together, but until emotions settle down this is the way it will have to be.

Bromley86

Something that occurred to me regarding that cat-proofing fence topper and the OP owning a cat. Presumably the solution is to leave a gap in the proofing to allow your cat in & out.

Of course, that would allow other cats in, but from what I can see the fence topper only discourages cats from walking on the fence. If a dog is charging at the cat, I imaging the cat will put up with a little discomfort as it scrambles back over the fence.

scrabbles_2

krlyr wrote: »

It's a bit like saying anyone who chooses to not have children should still child-proof their garden incase the local kids decide to climb in and play in the pond or garage.

Ummm... well, anyone responsible does! And they do it because they know how awful it would be if that one remote chance were to happen and they'd rather make a small effort now than live with guilt for the rest of their lives. If a kid drank antifreeze I had in a non-childproofed bottle on the bottom shelf of my unsecured shed I wouldn't be thinking, "well the kid shouldn't have trespassed" or "the parents should have controlled their kids". I would be thinking, "why on earth didn't I lock that away. Why didn't I do something about that when I could."

krlyr wrote: »

I don't see how it is morally right to knowingly allow a pet to wander into other people's property and cause mess, damage and stress to their own pets.

Two wrongs don't make a right. And if the worst thing happened I do hope you wouldn't just shrug your shoulders and say 'well, not my problem'. EVERY sensible pet owner knows that they have to reconcile their pet's natural instincts with the domestic setting we choose to keep them in. I'm not so big on cat owners who think that their cats have carte blanche to do what they like, when they like, where they like either, but that doesn't mean it's okay for everyone else to act the same way.

krlyr wrote: »

will not have a cat's death on my conscience when it was not me who decided to let it fend for itself.

Well, you won't really find that out unless it happens. Sadly if you find it does weigh on your conscience it will be too late to change anything. The world is full of people bearing enormous guilt for foreseeable accidents, even when they did foresee them and thought at the time that they were okay with their decisions.




This has strayed far from the original post. But I did feel I had to comment on this post, so I'll say my bit than leave it. Hopefully OP has found some of the posts here helpful, she is a reasonable person doing her best and doesn't deserve this to become some big 'dogs vs cats' debate.

lisawood78

Hang on. I am right that it is being suggested that due to being a dog owner (same breed as the ops at that) and a cat jumped into my garden (possible but 7ft wooden panels +1ft gravel boards) and my dogs managed to actually catch it and hurt it (I don't think they would but of course they are an animal and I won't pretend to know their minds) then it would be my fault fully for not cat proofing my fence? Don't get me wrong, I also like cats, used to own some and had one ripped to pieces by a wandering grey. Didn't bear the dog any malice, just the owners who let it roam the streets. I would be sad if my dogs hurt a cat on my land but if my dogs are secure on my property, i'm not doing anything to tempt said cats in (pond or aviary or leaving food out or something) and certainly not encouraging any in then i'm sorry, it isn't my fault and i'm not going to do anymore to prevent a cats entry.
Saying all that, i've owned this house for almost 5 years and have never seen a cat in the garden, when we first moved in one used to sit on the front doorstep, but a ten stone dog huffing at it from the other side of tthe glass soon took care of that.