Absence because of pet death

CFC

ILW wrote: »

I am not medically trained, my sister has been a GP for nearly 30 years and is happy to admit that if a patient presents with around 5 classic symptoms, it is a virtually auto matic depression diagnosis.

But I'm not sure what is wrong with that?

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, flies like a duck and smells like a duck....that's 5....it pretty much is a duck.

True, once referred to a specialist, you may find it is a deformed chicken or a quail wearing fancy dress...but those are going to be rare cases.

CFC

andygb wrote: »

Could all the people who agree with this person being given sick leave to "adjust" to this problem, please answer this.
Would you still feel the same, if the pet was a budgie, hamster, guinea pig, goldfish, rat, rabbit, snake, spider, lizard, or any of the other animals which people keep as pets, or are you just going to put cats and dogs (maybe horses) up on a pedestal above all other animals?
What about the people who have to cover for this person's work whilst they are away - will they get time off for the extra stress?
As the other workers find out the reason, will this then prompt "jumping on the bandwagon", and then possible claims of discrimination if you fail to treat other people the same way?

Well Andy, that's very silly. If someone is depressed or stressed they are depressed and stressed, whatever has prompted it, whether it is seeing nasties in the woodshed when they were 6 or losing a pet, really doesn't matter, does it?

Doesn't sound to me as if you are employed from your other comments as you don't appear to have a clue.

*Jane*

Would love to have a doctor like she has, have just returned to work after having a hysterectomy and had to more or less beg my doctor for a phased return to work note as my job involves very heavy lifting and all he would give me is 3 weeks.

Fire_Fox

ILW wrote: »

You are missing the point.
A doctor that diagnosed any of the above purely on what a patient told them would be considered incompetent.

At GP level depression is generally diagnosed in a 15 minute interview and even if a GP is suspicious of the patient they will generally go with it if that is what the patient believes or wishes. Serious cases will be referred.

The clever bit is deciding who need referral.

GPs are nowhere near infallible and are extremely limited by time and finances.

The clever bit in EVERY case the GP sees is deciding who need referral, not just mental health! You clearly know very little about diagnosing 'simple' mental health issues like clinical depression, it simply is not that difficult to diagnose depression there are many more diagnostic tools than simply what the patient says. If your sister needs help with numbers two through five she needs retraining.

1. Self reported SYMPTOMS, for example low mood, lack of motivation, sleep disturbances
2. Doctor observation/ SIGNS, for example tearfulness, not meeting or holding the gaze, tremor
3. Possible trigger or contributory factors, for example life event, substance abuse
4. Investigating or ruling out of conditions where depression is a symptom instead of a primary diagnosis
5. Response to treatment.

It's really not that difficult to distinguish between mild and severe depression, not that difficult to establish where there are clear precipitating factors (job loss, bereavement, end of relationship, often a cluster) or where there are none, really not that difficult to establish a possibility of suicidal feelings, psychosis, hallucinations, paranoia or delusions that would warrant referral.

What exactly do you imagine an appointment with a psychiatrist entails that will miraculously come up with the right diagnosis? Do you think they give us truth drugs? Do you really think it ethical to stick people who are suffering on a waiting list with no proposed diagnosis and no treatment for weeks? Do you really believe the PCT mental health team are rolling in money and sitting around twiddling their thumbs? Do you know what has to be written on referral forms for the mental health team to agree you need to be seen?

This doctor has NOT diagnosed depression in one fifteen minute visit, they diagnosed stress-related disorder in at least one visit. No diagnosis is set in stone after the first visit, in many cases the patient is suffering with insomnia and or stress, these can make the depression appear worse than it is, and can be chicken and egg (symptoms feeding back into diagnosis). Any decent GP is well aware of this, it is one of the reasons many people are signed off work.

Again how many hours do you think a GP should spend diagnosing asthma, atopic eczema, diabetes, urinary cystitis, hypertension or hypercholesterolaemia? Perhaps ALL of these should be referred to the relevant hospital consultants because GPs are nowhere near infallible?

Poppie68 wrote: »

The employee in question was signed of with stress not depression.
Stress is easier to diagnose than clinical depression as they are too very different conditions
. Usually GP's will refer for Mental health evaluations when they have witnessed several episodes of different behaviour pointing to this condition.
These days GP's tend to put stress on a sick note rather than 'depression' unless the patient has had a full evaluation.

The employee was signed off with stress-related disorder, not stress. Stress related disorder can encompass clinical depression OR insomnia OR anxiety OR some combination. GPs refer for mental health evaluations under specific criteria not the number of episodes, many cases of repeat depression that respond well to antidepressants are assessed and treated by the GP practice alone. The doctor will refer if they think a talking therapy may be indicated, for severe cases or those resistant to treatment, or for a more complex diagnosis than they can provide (eg. bipolar).

Sambucus_Nigra wrote: »

I don't need a healthcare qualification to see that the OP only mentioned one issue that they knew of, and that was the death of a pet. Hence not being able to comment about any of the other problems this person may or may not have.

A stress related disorder can mean any number of things, from the death of a pet to a complete breakdown. But as we don't actually know any more than a pet died, this is why people are saying they are surprised that they are signed off for so long.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree, I don't know the issue that this person actually has. So get down off that high horse eh?

A death of a pet is a life event, a potential trigger, it IS NOT a diagnosis. People are saying they are surprised they are signed off for so long for a pet, yet they are not there are signed off so long for a disorder of mental health!!

It's as stupid saying you can't understand why Dave is signed off for so long for falling off their pushbike because little Johnny only skinned his knee last time, when Dave is ACTUALLY signed off with a compound fracture of the ankle. It doesn't matter how the compound fracture of the ankle occurred, nor how the stress related disorder occurred. What matters is the severity of the symptoms as determined by a qualified medical professional.

Sambucus_Nigra

Errata wrote: »

Stress has always been part of everyday life, it's part and parcel of being a sentient human being and is actually quite healthy.

It's part of the Fight or Flight Response; but we don't fight or flight anymore, we deal with it or go to the doctors and get signed off.

Sambucus_Nigra

Fire_Fox wrote: »

A death of a pet is a life event, a potential trigger, it IS NOT a diagnosis.

I have not said it's a diagnosis.

I'll repeat again. Try reading this time.

The reason people are responding that they are shocked that this person is signed off is that the OP [the original poster] has only given us two pieces of information.
1 - a pet died
2 - they have been signed off with a stress related disorder.

Because of this, people are saying that they find it hard to believe that the death of a pet has resulting in being signed off with stress.

Joe_P_2

As has been suggested, the loss of a pet is a trigger - what often causes depression is the release of every pent up piece of grief, upset, anxiety and such that a person has held back for years.

I love my cats more than I like most people - in the last 2 years I've lost two elderly ones, and whilst expected it was still distressing and I ended up taking a day off in each case - as I'm self employed it's easier. I've suffered from diagnosed, clinical depression (and been treated for it) and during that time the only time I took off was for counsellking sessions / doctors appointments, but it takes all sorts to make a world.

Serious depression is not just being sad; it's being paralysed with fear and sadness with little hope of ever seeing the light again.

Fire_Fox

andygb wrote: »

Could all the people who agree with this person being given sick leave to "adjust" to this problem, please answer this.
Would you still feel the same, if the pet was a budgie, hamster, guinea pig, goldfish, rat, rabbit, snake, spider, lizard, or any of the other animals which people keep as pets, or are you just going to put cats and dogs (maybe horses) up on a pedestal above all other animals?
What about the people who have to cover for this person's work whilst they are away - will they get time off for the extra stress?
As the other workers find out the reason, will this then prompt "jumping on the bandwagon", and then possible claims of discrimination if you fail to treat other people the same way?

The animal is irrelevant, this person has been diagnosed with a mental health issue and deserves the empathy and consideration afforded to anyone with a health condition serious enough to get a sicknote. And yet the vast majority of people on this thread have scoffed, disbelieved and made nasty personal comments, which just shows me how much prejudice and ignorance there is against this vulnerable section of the population.

You are confusing additional pressure at work (colloquial stress) with diagnosable condition of stress or anxiety; physically there are positive stressors, neutral stressors and negative stressors. If you exercise regularly you put the body into stress yet get fitter. If you exercise too hard or too often you get injured or overtrained. That occurs at a different point for each person - athletes can put their body under intense stress.

Similarly clinical depression is completely different to people who say they feel depressed because their team lost or because they didn't get the job they wanted. Again the tipping point from sadness into diagnosable depression occurs at a different point for each person, more often than not there is an accumulation of factors sometimes including positive ones like a wedding.

Why wouldn't you treat every member of staff who was diagnosed with stress-related disorder and signed off for a couple of weeks in a similar way? If you didn't it would be breaking the law. If other workers 'jump on the bandwagon' and fraudulently claim a medical condition they don't have they would be in breach of their work contract.

Fire_Fox

Sambucus_Nigra wrote: »

Because of this, people are saying that they find it hard to believe that the death of a pet has resulting in being signed off with stress.

Which just shows how ignorant and prejudiced many MSEers are, doesn't it? Rather than scoffing, disbelieved and making nasty personal comments, people could have done some Googling or just kept an open mind. Just because a layman doesn't understand a medical condition doesn't make it acceptable to be nasty about the person who is suffering from it. Don't you agree?

Sambucus_Nigra wrote: »

It's part of the Fight or Flight Response; but we don't fight or flight anymore, we deal with it or go to the doctors and get signed off.

!!!!!! they have not been signed off with stress they have been signed off with stress related disorder. How many more times? :rotfl:

Clinical or diagnosable stress/ state or trait anxiety is NOT part of the fight or flight response. More like the fight or flight response gone completely haywire is PART of clinical stress/ anxiety. You are confusing a medical condition with the colloquial use of the same word.

SandC

I must ask my brother what his two week sick note said when he was signed off for two weeks after the death of our father. He went to his GP because he made the mistake of having his wife ring his HR department at work, who told her that he was entitled to one day off work for a close family member bereavement. He had one day off, went in to work then went home as he wasn't capable of working.

He then went to his GP and he sat down and said that his dad had passed away and he told me that she was already reaching for her pad at that point.

They have to write something on the note and that has to be some kind of medical condition - I would imagine that stress related disorder would certainly cover the emotional trauma suffered after the death of a pet. I expect her GP was understanding enough to realise that this particular experience was as traumatic at the time of the visit as that of a bereavement of a relation and most are happy to sign off work after a bereavement, as experienced by my brother.

Incidentally, had he rung and spoken to his direct boss he wouldn't have had to go down the route he did, as it was he spoke to HR who read from the T&Cs book and does not cover the discretion that management has on these things. I spoke to my boss and he told me to stay off as long as I needed, which was not two weeks (and actually my brother said he didn't need the two weeks either but took them because he could).