Son left education- losing large percentage tax credits

bestpud

dktreesea wrote: »

Depends on the kind of courses. Try getting a place at art college, or in hairdressing or dance. For every place available on one of the design courses at the college near us, they had 7 applicants for every place. And that's only counting the ones who had the appropriate qualifications from school to apply.

One lad who had got good standard grades last year wanted to get onto a welding course; he wanted to work on a ship. Not only could he not get a place - his careers adviser told him the local BHS were hiring. Do we really want our young people staffing the likes of BHS if it isn't what they want to do? It's just as bad as dumping a geology graduate in Poundland.

Well, they have at least two options:

1) Wallow in self pity, funded by the Bank of Mum and Dad, until they eventually decide to get out there and take the lowest paid job that nobody else wants because no employer wants someone who retreats to their bedroom when the going gets tough. If they aren't that 'lucky', they can go onto JSA and become a statistic until they are forced into the Work Programme.

2) They could take a job at BHS, get some work history, gain a reference and possibly a couple of certificates for manual handling etc. In a year they can apply again for the course they want but this time showing commitment, said reference etc and a bit more maturity.

Which do you think is the better path?

EmmaHerts

I am truly shocked and, may I say, horrified that working in a shop is considered 'beneath' some people.

I know several people who started out working in shops and then used that as a base to train for something more relevant to what they wanted to do in life. It is much easier as a young person to get further employment if they have already held down a position.

Errata

EmmaHerts wrote: »

I am truly shocked and, may I say, horrified that working in a shop is considered 'beneath' some people.

I know several people who started out working in shops and then used that as a base to train for something more relevant to what they wanted to do in life. It is much easier as a young person to get further employment if they have already held down a position.

It certainly looks more sensible than a place on a college dance course leading to .............. probably shop work.

dktreesea

It's not a matter of working in a shop being beneath people. We should be attempting to match young people to opportunities which reflect their skills and interests. I wouldn't want to be a hairdresser either, nor a welder. But when we say we are guaranteeing young people a place in further education or training, they should be engaged in the decision. If they want to be a welder, who am I to say "you lose. All places are taken. Go and work at Asda/Tesco/"UK Plc some job that doesn't interest you" instead!"

Is it really so desirable to limit the number,. for example, of welders we train, and instead consign young people to "careers" they are not interested in, didn't seek out of their own accord, just so we can feel self righteous about making them "do" something?

Education is meant to be fun and interesting, not a way to a meal ticket. How does "educating" people in the art of selling items they haven't got the slightest interest in (especially when there are plenty of fashionistas and shopaholics for whom working in a shop would be their pleasure) rank above educating them in what they want to do?

It's about time we stopped forcing young people into jobs they are unsuitable for just so we can feel virtuous about it, and started investing in giving them a decent education instead.

Take the geology graduate who ended up in Poundland. The taxpayer is going to pay her, whatever she does. Why couldn't the local careers centre (whoops! I forgot! Westminster in their "wisdom" have cut the funding for this service in England http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2013/jan/23/careers-advice-reforms-mps) have helped her get onto a project that she was interested in and was commensurate with her skill set? Would it have costed them anymore? No, but it might have resulted with someone with two or three years relevant expereince at the end of the project, enough for her to get a paid position somewhere.

I consider dumping graduates in places like Poundland an insult to the taxpayer who has just forked out tens of thousands of pounds in the case of some degrees to train them. Not to mention an insult to the person unwilling to work there because they would like to do something that interests them more instead.

dktreesea

bestpud wrote: »

Well, they have at least two options:

1) Wallow in self pity, funded by the Bank of Mum and Dad, until they eventually decide to get out there and take the lowest paid job that nobody else wants because no employer wants someone who retreats to their bedroom when the going gets tough. If they aren't that 'lucky', they can go onto JSA and become a statistic until they are forced into the Work Programme.

2) They could take a job at BHS, get some work history, gain a reference and possibly a couple of certificates for manual handling etc. In a year they can apply again for the course they want but this time showing commitment, said reference etc and a bit more maturity.

Which do you think is the better path?

Maybe the ones who are offered a job are doing better than we think. Even if I would rather they be educated in a skill of their choice rather than spend the rest of their lives wasting away in a low wage job, never really achieving their potential.

We didn't get to 893,000 NEETs (16 to 24 year olds http://news.uk.msn.com/sixth-of-young-people-are-neet) in the UK by doing the right thing by them even in the work department, let alone by providing them with training and/or education appropriate to their skills and interests.

Maybe if we had, the anxieties of low income parents faced with a drop in income via benefits because they can't get better paid work now due to not having good access to education at the time they needed it, would be eased, because at least they would have the comfort of knowing their child was getting the best chance of a decent life, rather than being dumped on the scrapheap.

CKhalvashi

Poppie68 wrote: »

Whats wrong with working in BHS if they are hiring? It's a job with a wage and work experience.
I started my working life at Woolworths which gave me good experience and then went on to have a good career earning a decent wage.

I'm fully with this.

OH started working in a taxi office in Russia, then in the UK, then started driving, then started her own company, and has about 60 cars now.

It was something that she didn't want to do, on crap money, that she built into something successful, and I've been much the same.

CK

Dunroamin

dktreesea wrote: »

Is it really so desirable to limit the number,. for example, of welders we train, and instead consign young people to "careers" they are not interested in, didn't seek out of their own accord, just so we can feel self righteous about making them "do" something?

If the end result is going to be dozens of unemployed welders or a glut in the market that forces wages down then yes, it is realistic to limit the numbers of welders we train.

Education is meant to be fun and interesting, not a way to a meal ticket. How does "educating" people in the art of selling items they haven't got the slightest interest in (especially when there are plenty of fashionistas and shopaholics for whom working in a shop would be their pleasure) rank above educating them in what they want to do?

Except that what a large number of young people want to do is be professional footballers, footballers wives and reality TV stars. Education may be "fun and interesting" but training often isn't.

It's about time we stopped forcing young people into jobs they are unsuitable for just so we can feel virtuous about it, and started investing in giving them a decent education instead.

Now that I do agree with, assuming that we mean the same thing by it, which I rather doubt.

Why couldn't the local careers centre (whoops! I forgot! Westminster in their "wisdom" have cut the funding for this service in England

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2013/jan/23/careers-advice-reforms-mps)

There hasn't been a Careers Service in England for ten years and, when there was, its function wasn't to deal with people over the age of 19. Graduates should use their university careers service (or reciprocal local one)

I consider dumping graduates in places like Poundland an insult to the taxpayer who has just forked out tens of thousands of pounds in the case of some degrees to train them. Not to mention an insult to the person unwilling to work there because they would like to do something that interests them more instead.

Degree level study shouldn't be about "training" and those who want to claim public money in the form of JSA need to be available for work and, after a period of time, any work.

bestpud

dktreesea wrote: »

Maybe the ones who are offered a job are doing better than we think. Even if I would rather they be educated in a skill of their choice rather than spend the rest of their lives wasting away in a low wage job, never really achieving their potential.

We didn't get to 893,000 NEETs (16 to 24 year olds http://news.uk.msn.com/sixth-of-young-people-are-neet) in the UK by doing the right thing by them even in the work department, let alone by providing them with training and/or education appropriate to their skills and interests.

Maybe if we had, the anxieties of low income parents faced with a drop in income via benefits because they can't get better paid work now due to not having good access to education at the time they needed it, would be eased, because at least they would have the comfort of knowing their child was getting the best chance of a decent life, rather than being dumped on the scrapheap.

We got that many because parents have pandered to them, the education system has pandered to them and, sadly, we have far too many teens with a completely unrealistic view of the real world and their own ability.

Constant praise and being told they are wonderful has done them no good whatsoever.

Soo, lazy kids who think the world owes them a living (an interesting and well paid one at that) and insipid parents who tiptoe around them for fear of making them mentally ill = a recipe for disaster!

You all need a kick up the back side and I'm glad this government have decided to do just that!

sarahg1969

bestpud wrote: »

We got that many because parents have pandered to them, the education system has pandered to them and, sadly, we have far too many teens with a completely unrealistic view of the real world and their own ability.

Constant praise and being told they are wonderful has done them no good whatsoever.

Soo, lazy kids who think the world owes them a living (an interesting and well paid one at that) and insipid parents who tiptoe around them for fear of making them mentally ill = a recipe for disaster!

You all need a kick up the back side and I'm glad this government have decided to do just that!

Absolutely. We went to a presentation evening at our girls' school, where the headmistress raved on and on about how 'you are all fantastic, girls; you can be anything you want to be; spread your wings and fly.....'. Fact is, they're not all fantastic.

Fortunately, our children know the world doesn't owe them a living, and they need to get up off their backsides and work hard, starting with a menial job if need be, to get their foot on the job ladder. And when they're there, they do as they're told. They're not in charge - a massive bugbear of mine, having to deal with stroppy junior members of admin staff at work, who think photocopying is boring and beneath them.

They've all had part-time jobs since they were old enough, ranging from toilet cleaning and bar work to sports coaching (something they'd worked hard to qualify for while at school).

poet123

sarahg1969 wrote: »

Absolutely. We went to a presentation evening at our girls' school, where the headmistress raved on and on about how 'you are all fantastic, girls; you can be anything you want to be; spread your wings and fly.....'. Fact is, they're not all fantastic.

Fortunately, our children know the world doesn't owe them a living, and they need to get up off their backsides and work hard, starting with a menial job if need be, to get their foot on the job ladder. And when they're there, they do as they're told. They're not in charge - a massive bugbear of mine, having to deal with stroppy junior members of admin staff at work, who think photocopying is boring and beneath them.

They've all had part-time jobs since they were old enough, ranging from toilet cleaning and bar work to sports coaching (something they'd worked hard to qualify for while at school).

I couldn't agree more, with both your post and the one from BP. We used to send students out on work placement. I lost count of the number who were told not to come back because they wouldn't take instructions. They wouldn't make tea, or do anything they thought was beneath them. We had one lad who refused to clean a computer (with a wet wipe!!) because he didn't do cleaning at home, and it wasn't something he fancied doing!!

There is a fine line between instilling confidence and arrogance.