Speeding Ticket - HELP

Mattchewone

Hi all,

This afternoon on my way back from a day out with my partner, child and dogs. I took a diversion to avoid some traffic and went a way which I know well.
There is a a 30mph road that then turns into a 60mph and before the transition there are some bushes on the left and a dead end road with houses alongside the road.

We use the road fairly regularly and occasionally we've heard of speed traps in the alongside road. And today I got a ticket from one, the officer was hiding in the bush and walked on into the road to pull me over, he has given me a ticket for doing 45mph I'm a 30mph I was too angry and tired to argue it so politely took it and got home.

Now I don't recall going that fast, how do I know that it was even me that he recorded doing that speed as I was unaware that there was a speed trap in place. The police car was also undercover.

I've never had points, tickets or any run ins with police and am very upset and frustrated. I don't speed with the family in the car but don't know what to do.

I am really angry about it mainly myself of I had gone the normal route I would of just got stuck in traffic and an average speed check and would of missed this but I didn't.

Is there any way to fight it?

Matt

taffy056

Think you've been done bang to rights as they say, going over by that much will probably mean a trip to the magistrates court as well, can't see how you will defend it myself but one of our regular posters HO87 who was a police officer may help here. And post on pepipoo.com they may offer advice as well

The_Slithy_Tove

45 in a 30 is still in Fixed Penalty area (just about).

A roadside stop is very hard to get out of, in terms of challenging it in court. You say you don't think you were doing 45, but how fast do you think you were doing? Even 31 is, in theory, enough to get done, so unless you were absoultely sure you were doing 30 or less, you don't really have a defence. Being unaware of a speed trap or police hiding in the bushes is also no defence. I understand that you feel angry and hard done by - that is a natural reaction.

If you get hte COFP (Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty), then accepting that is almost certainly your best offer. Challenging in court will likely cost a lot more. Sorry, but 45 in a 30 is too fast for a speed awareness course.

McKneff

There was someone posted on here last night, nearly in the same position, went off to court to dispute it and got fined £600, boy was he spitting mad.

HO87

@ OP were you issued with a Fixed Penalty on the spot or reported for summons and given a "producer" (a form to produce your documents at a police station)? This isn't clear from your description.

If what you have is an Endorseable Fixed Penalty Notice (which is what I suspect) then the only way to fight it is to decline to accept it and wait for the inevitable summons. This will leave you with the opportunity of attempting to argue that you don't remember doing the speed alleged; that the officer was mistaken or that his laser/radar gun was out of whack. Without evidence of the latter you will fail, not maybe fail, fail. Period. Pleading not guilty at Magistrates Court eliminates any early guilty plea discount you are entitled to (30%). Any fine imposed may simply mirror that attached to the FPN (i.e. £60) but is more likely to be based on your income - 50% of your relevant weekly income (i.e. your weekly income minus tax and NI only). To this you can inevitably add costs (currently ranging from £48 to £87 - but higher if you had a witness called) and then the completely inescapable Victims Levy - another £15.

The officer has no demonstrable axe to grind with you (unless you know otherwise) and, from the court's perspective has nothing to gain from accusing you without foundation or simply on a whim. All the evidence that is required to prove the offence (to obtain a conviction) is that the officer formed an opinion as to the speed you were doing; that that opinion was corroborated (by the speed gun of whatever type), that the speed was in excess of the limit and, finally, that you were driving at the time. Do you believe that he will fail in respect of any of those elements?

The only conceivable avenue to explore is to confirm whether the limit, you are being accused of having exceeded, and its attendant signage are lawfully placed and that you were within it at the time of the alleged speeding. Each speed limit will generally require a Traffic regulation Order (a TRO). All local TRO's will be recorded by the local authority but they are a matter of public record. Go to the local council offces and ask to be provided with a copy for the relevant road. This should provide detailed locations for the start and finish of the limit and you can then compare that with what appears on the ground.

I'd suggest you do this before making the final decision to pay or not to pay so time will be short.

Finally, you may feel that £60 and 3 points is not that bad a deal and, as you have no other points, will not affect your premiums. If you are concerned that it might carry out a few dummy quotes using online comparison sites.

Tobster86

HO87 wrote: »

The officer has no demonstrable axe to grind with you (unless you know otherwise) and, from the court's perspective has nothing to gain from accusing you without foundation or simply on a whim. All the evidence that is required to prove the offence (to obtain a conviction) is that the officer formed an opinion as to the speed you were doing; that that opinion was corroborated (by the speed gun of whatever type), that the speed was in excess of the limit and, finally, that you were driving at the time. Do you believe that he will fail in respect of any of those elements?

I disagree. You have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt to have been speeding. A human opinion and a number on the back of a handheld laser gun does not do that. A roadside admission of guilt does, which is what they seek in that situation.

Whether arguing in court is worth a £60 FPN is another question. It would also be adviseable to seek proper legal advice, although I'd check if one can still claim legal expenses back because this was brought into question two years ago.

The trick in this situation is to reduce the case to a roadside telling off, by not providing the admission of guilt but being polite & apologetic. If you give the officer(s) a hard time in any way they'll only make it worse for you. At the end of the day they are only human and usually have pretty good intentions, and would rather productively teach you a lesson whilst being able to spend a day playing with a 250bhp Volvo T5 instead of being in court!

The_Slithy_Tove

Tobster86 wrote: »

I disagree. You have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt to have been speeding. A human opinion and a number on the back of a handheld laser gun does not do that.

Are you willing to argue that in court? Many try. Most fail.

HO87

Tobster86 wrote: »

I disagree. You have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt to have been speeding. A human opinion and a number on the back of a handheld laser gun does not do that. A roadside admission of guilt does, which is what they seek in that situation.

Whilst we are, of course, entitled to our views I was not voicing an opinion in respect of the evidence required to prove the offence but simply summarising the law. There are few occasions when a police officer's opinion carries weight in court but this is one them and provided his opinion is corroborated by a type-approved laser/radar device (amongst a number of alternatives) then, like it or not, that is sufficient to convict. In a motorway setting, it is worth remembering that a single officer's opinion alone is sufficient and no corroboration is required.

Tobster86 wrote: »

Whether arguing in court is worth a £60 FPN is another question. It would also be adviseable to seek proper legal advice, although I'd check if one can still claim legal expenses back because this was brought into question two years ago.

Legal Aid is no longer available for offences such as speeding though you may still find the odd solicitor who will offer a free 30-minute session. If you can get a free half an hour then do so. However, to recap, the most likely minimum sentence - it would seem likely that there is sufficient evidence to convict - will mirror the EFPN in terms of the fine, i.e. £60 but will attract, as a minimum, a further £15 Victim Levy, and is highly likely to include an order for costs which will be in the range given. This would all have the nett effect of doubling the financial penalty. Whether the OP feels this is worth the candle is a matter for him, of course.

Tigerbush

Hard nosed copper 1-0 Keyboard lawyer
No disrespect intended Tobster

bargepole

HO87 wrote: »

... All the evidence that is required to prove the offence (to obtain a conviction) is that the officer formed an opinion as to the speed you were doing; that that opinion was corroborated (by the speed gun of whatever type), that the speed was in excess of the limit and, finally, that you were driving at the time. Do you believe that he will fail in respect of any of those elements?...

I helped out a MSE forum member with an exactly similar case a couple of years ago, except that it was a PCSO not a serving officer.

The defendant had his partner with him in the car, and she came to court as a witness to testify that she looked at the speedo when the officer jumped out of the bushes, and would swear that it was under 30.

However, none of this was needed, because once the 23-year-old fresh-out-of-law-school CPS prosecutor had declared "that concludes the case for the prosecution", we noticed that she hadn't adduced any evidence of the identity of the driver, even though we could see the signed s172 form in her folder.

So we asked the Mags to dismiss the case on that basis, and they did, with an award of £85 costs to the defendant.

Celebratory coffee and muffins all round in the local Starbucks afterwards. But don't go for this sort of high-risk high-reward strategy unless you are completely confident with court procedures and law.

Tobster86

The point I wanted to make was the human element rather than the legal one, having twice talked the situation down to a bit of a road side bollocking from well meaning coppers that I have a lot of respect for. One occasion was corroborated by laser. Still have a clean licence and never had so much as a parking ticket*.

*The paperwork from Parking Eye which I recommended they insert into themselves doesn't count.