Section 21 notice

James_N

BitterAndTwisted wrote: »

There's nothing "tricky" about wanting to be able to rent long-term rather then worrying throughout the tenancy about possibly being evicted after only six months. What other message could this hypothetical S21 Notice be giving prospective tenants?

Finding another suitable property, being charged for referencing, saving up yet another deposit and then moving again costs rather a lot of money

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and only empirical evidence is going to convince a landlord of a tenant's true worth. Until then, a properly served early S21 is a good defence.

A tenant going into a tenancy with a view to refusing to move until a proper eviction can be taken though the courts is not someone I would want. And of course, with deposits protected, saving for a deposit should be simpler, since landlords can't play that system and unfairly take monies - trickiness is not all one-way. Unless you know you are so poor at keeping house that a landlord is bound to seek to recover against damage etc.

corbyboy

James_N wrote: »

Why do you wish to rent with the INTENTION of being difficult when you are asked to leave. I know all about the law, and appreciate all the points above which are correct, but it's the thinking I am questioning. You are looking for ways to technically be "tricky".

It's a wonder any landlords rent at all if the things I read on here are common.

Yeah, because there's nothing "tricky" about a landlord issuing a section 21 notice at the beginning of a tenancy is there?

You live by the sword, you die by the sword.............

happy_as_annie

James_N wrote: »

Why do you wish to rent with the INTENTION of being difficult when you are asked to leave. I know all about the law, and appreciate all the points above which are correct, but it's the thinking I am questioning. You are looking for ways to technically be "tricky".

It's a wonder any landlords rent at all if the things I read on here are common.

As others have already pointed out I don't think making myself fully aware of the facts is INTENTIONALLY being difficult. The estate agent is effectively trying to circumvent the legal necessity to give me 2 months notice before claiming posession of the property. All I am doing is looking for a way to stop them doing so. Provided correct notice is served by a landlord I would have no intention of being intentionally awkward, if at all possible. If anyone is being tricky here it is the estate agents who serve notice to quit when the landlord has no intention of claiming posession but who simply wish to speed up the process in case they do. The law is already heavily geared towards landlords without these dirty tricks adding to it.

franklee

corbyboy wrote: »

You live by the sword, you die by the sword.............

Well it is nicknamed Sword of Damocles

One thing I would add that although the first S21 is likely to be invalid (as the deposit regs won't have been complied with by the time the S21 is served as everyone has already said) it's very likely the agent will pull the same stunt again with any renewal. That is they get you to sign up for the next six months and then serve you with a new S21 asking you to leave at the end of that term. This new S21 has more chance of being valid. It may be you have to go through this procedure every six (or twelve months) paying the agent a fee for the privilege each time. Then when eventually a renewal is not offered it may catch you out and you have have less than your two months notice left before you realise that this time they really want possession.

After the fixed term, I would not recommend remaining on a periodic tenancy unless you can get the S21 withdrawn as a valid S21 can be actioned any time during the periodic tenancy, it has no "use by" date.

So you'd need to check what their renewal fees are. Also do you really want to be dealing with an agent that has tried to trick you from the off?

happy_as_annie

franklee wrote: »

Well it is nicknamed Sword of Damocles

One thing I would add that although the first S21 is likely to be invalid (as the deposit regs won't have been complied with by the time the S21 is served as everyone has already said) it's very likely the agent will pull the same stunt again with any renewal. That is they get you to sign up for the next six months and then serve you with a new S21 asking you to leave at the end of that term. This new S21 has more chance of being valid. It may be you have to go through this procedure every six (or twelve months) paying the agent a fee for the privilege each time. Then when eventually a renewal is not offered it may catch you out and you have have less than your two months notice left before you realise that this time they really want possession.

After the fixed term, I would not recommend remaining on a periodic tenancy unless you can get the S21 withdrawn as a valid S21 can be actioned any time during the periodic tenancy, it has no "use by" date.

So you'd need to check what their renewal fees are. Also do you really want to be dealing with an agent that has tried to trick you from the off?

Thanks for the warning. I guess, if I did decide to proceed, then going onto a periodic after the end of the initial AST may be okay, as that original S.21 would be invalid. The problem would come further down the line if I signed a second AST, a new (valid) s.21 was issued, and then after that 6 months I went onto a periodic tenancy meaning that the new s.21 notice could be actioned at any time.

I know exactly what you mean about not being able to trust the agent. The problem seems to be that it is so common practice, that it is actually difficult to find somewhere to rent where this is not the norm.

BitterAndTwisted

I would suggest that you make enquiries direct with the landlord about their intentions long-term once you're in the property and have paid the rent in full and on time. I think some landlords may not even be aware that their agents try the S21 trick.

Most sensible landlords look for reliable long-term tenants as the tenant-finding fees and risk of void-periods between tenants can cost them buckets.

happy_as_annie

BitterAndTwisted wrote: »

I would suggest that you make enquiries direct with the landlord about their intentions long-term once you're in the property and have paid the rent in full and on time. I think some landlords may not even be aware that their agents try the S21 trick.

Most sensible landlords look for reliable long-term tenants as the tenant-finding fees and risk of void-periods between tenants can cost them buckets.

That's exactly what I would do. It seemed to be the agent who was insisting that it was common practice, rather than it being something they were doing at the insistence of the landlord. I agree that most sensible landlords wouldn't want new tenants every 6 months, so hopefully the landlord is a sensible one

whalster

BitterAndTwisted wrote: »

I would suggest that you make enquiries direct with the landlord about their intentions long-term once you're in the property and have paid the rent in full and on time. I think some landlords may not even be aware that their agents try the S21 trick.

Most sensible landlords look for reliable long-term tenants as the tenant-finding fees and risk of void-periods between tenants can cost them buckets.

totaly bang on ! sensible landlords do !
now this is the trick, how do we go about educating the others that agents are greedy useless and often stupid and don't look after our intersts and just want our tenants money and ours .

franklee

happy_as_annie wrote: »

Thanks for the warning. I guess, if I did decide to proceed, then going onto a periodic after the end of the initial AST may be okay, as that original S.21 would be invalid.

That's a good plan. However it may be that the agent tells you they "don't do" periodic tenancies. Of course they can't prevent one arising but it may be they won't like it as they lose their renewal fees.

BitterAndTwisted wrote: »

Most sensible landlords look for reliable long-term tenants as the tenant-finding fees and risk of void-periods between tenants can cost them buckets.

An appeal to the landlord may help, it may not, depending on how much the landlord has taken an interest in learning the business or if he just sits back and believes any rubbish his agent spouts.

Anyway it's a good idea for a tenant to get the landlord's address so they know they can write directly to him.

Besides with these precautionary S21s there is always the chance they are actioned against a good tenant e.g. if the landlord wants to sell. This is quite likely if it's an accidental landlord who couldn't sell so let for a bit and wants to try selling again. Other reasons may be a dispute over repairs or a tenant not agreeing a rent increase. That's the thing with an S21 even the best tenant cannot know if and when it will be used.

G_M

For information about what happens when your fixed term ends read this post here.

Also helps with understanding S21 notices a bit.

I would say nothing, sign the tenancy and move in, knowing the S21 you have been given is invalid.

But make a record of dates:
* xx/xx/12 - signed tenancy
* xx/xx/12 - paid deposit (£XXX). Receipt datedxx/xx/12
* xx/xx/12 - received S21 Notice delivered in person from Jo Bloggs/by post/whatever
xx/xx/12 - received details of deposit registration. Deposit registered with XXX on xx/xx/12