Lloyds TSB Card Fraud - They Wont Help

matttye

dalesrider wrote: »

OP's case of cash being taken was 6 hours later.
What you are referring too is a Lebanese loop. They will take and use the card in minutes as they know the card WILL BE STOPPED very quickly.

Forget the FCA stance.
And answer my question.

I'd go with what the law says.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2009/209/regulation/61/made

dalesrider

matttye wrote: »

I'd go with what the law says.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2009/209/regulation/61/made

Even the old FOS backed the bank on may cases such as this. So what the law says and how its delt with are not the same.

Have you not got the bottle to answer a simple question then?

If a customer cannot tell you what happened to the their card, or how someone got hold of their PIN.
Then, that is gross negligence.

Most fraud is clear cut and easy to work out. Shoulder surf, leb loop & counterfeit overseas fraud are no brainer's and can be picked up straight away, when speaking to a customer.

When someone comes on and cannot explain when or a how. Then, that gives grounds for NO upfront refund. It also makes you wonder just what they are hiding.

Remember your PIN is personal to you and should not be shared with anyone, that includes family....
So next time you pay for your shopping make sure that your kids are not peeking.

dalesrider

pqrdef wrote: »

The simple answer to shoulder-surfing would be to ask for 3 digits from a 6-digit PIN.

Hell half the country can remember a 4 digit code without writing it down...
6 digits would be great for fraudsters...

I bet 90% of customers would use their DOB :rotfl:

pqrdef

dalesrider wrote: »

Hell half the country can remember a 4 digit code without writing it down...

Letters on keypads would help.

Even better is to design the machine so the surfer can't read the screen. Then ask randomised questions. Even if the surfer gets the answers, they're not much use without the questions. For instance, if you were asked for 3 digits out of 4 in random order, and the surfer gets the 3 digits without knowing where they are, he's left with 240 options.

Instead of which, the surfer only has to observe 4 keypresses, and he knows immediately that those 4 keypresses are the 4 digits of your PIN in the order 1,2,3,4. The system couldn't be more brainless if it tried. It was invented by somebody who didn't have a clue what he was doing. Not only did he make no attempt to solve the problems, he didn't even know what they were.

I have no sympathy with the banks' predicament. - it's entirely self-inflicted. Didn't they evn think to consult somebody who knew anything about security?

matttye

dalesrider wrote: »

Even the old FOS backed the bank on may cases such as this. So what the law says and how its delt with are not the same.

Have you not got the bottle to answer a simple question then?

If a customer cannot tell you what happened to the their card, or how someone got hold of their PIN.
Then, that is gross negligence.

Most fraud is clear cut and easy to work out. Shoulder surf, leb loop & counterfeit overseas fraud are no brainer's and can be picked up straight away, when speaking to a customer.

When someone comes on and cannot explain when or a how. Then, that gives grounds for NO upfront refund. It also makes you wonder just what they are hiding.

Remember your PIN is personal to you and should not be shared with anyone, that includes family....
So next time you pay for your shopping make sure that your kids are not peeking.

Dont you see that what you're asking me is absurd?

"The law says you must give a refund but what would YOU do?"

I'd like to think I'd go with what the law says...

Just because someone doesn't know how or when their PIN was taken doesn't make it gross negligence. If there's a tiny camera on an ATM, is it gross negligence if I don't spot it? No - it is not.

Is it gross negligence if I can't protect my PIN in a store when people, including the cashier, are stood on every side of me? Not really.

dalesrider

matttye wrote: »

Dont you see that what you're asking me is absurd?

"The law says you must give a refund but what would YOU do?"

I'd like to think I'd go with what the law says...

Just because someone doesn't know how or when their PIN was taken doesn't make it gross negligence. If there's a tiny camera on an ATM, is it gross negligence if I don't spot it? No - it is not.

Is it gross negligence if I can't protect my PIN in a store when people, including the cashier, are stood on every side of me? Not really.

No the law does not say that YOU have to be refunded. You are simply looking at a few of the provisions. There are provisions for withholding a refund. Which even FOS will back the banks with. Minds with far more legal !!!!!! have been through the regulations and been back to FOS and got the green light to not refund people.

Check out 57 & 62.

You are getting yourself tied in a knot with the PIN. What you are forgetting is that the customers own card was used....

The customer never noticed they had lost the card.

What you consider as "absurd" are decisions I have to make on a daily basis.
From the facts that systems provide on what is known to have happened. Then to balance that against the story that the customer has given, as well as any police details.

Thankfully these cases are few and far between. Vast majority are clear cut no brainers.

matttye

dalesrider wrote: »

No the law does not say that YOU have to be refunded. You are simply looking at a few of the provisions. There are provisions for withholding a refund. Which even FOS will back the banks with. Minds with far more legal !!!!!! have been through the regulations and been back to FOS and got the green light to not refund people.

Check out 57 & 62.

You are getting yourself tied in a knot with the PIN. What you are forgetting is that the customers own card was used....

The customer never noticed they had lost the card.

What you consider as "absurd" are decisions I have to make on a daily basis.
From the facts that systems provide on what is known to have happened. Then to balance that against the story that the customer has given, as well as any police details.

Thankfully these cases are few and far between. Vast majority are clear cut no brainers.

Right... they talk about the customer not being entitled to redress if he/she is guilty of gross negligence, which is what we've been talking about in half of this thread.

How is losing a bank card automatically gross negligence? You could be pickpocketed and not notice until you get home if you've just finished your shopping. You might then let the bank know, by which time your account has been emptied.

dalesrider

matttye wrote: »

How is losing a bank card automatically gross negligence? You could be pickpocketed and not notice until you get home if you've just finished your shopping. You might then let the bank know, by which time your account has been emptied.

So how does pickpocket get the PIN then?

Do you honestly think that someone going to the risk of pickpocketing a card would then wait 6 hours before using it?

As I said previously. These types of cases are easy to pick out. From the story and experience of dealing with fraud.

When someone comes on and has no idea of what has happened then.
What would you think?

Or is that another "absurd" question.....

It's not even like they admitted they were drunk and that is why they cannot remember....

matttye

dalesrider wrote: »

So how does pickpocket get the PIN then?

Do you honestly think that someone going to the risk of pickpocketing a card would then wait 6 hours before using it?

As I said previously. These types of cases are easy to pick out. From the story and experience of dealing with fraud.

When someone comes on and has no idea of what has happened then.
What would you think?

Or is that another "absurd" question.....

It's not even like they admitted they were drunk and that is why they cannot remember....

The money was taken six hours after the OP last remembers having her card. That doesn't mean it was taken six hours after her card was actually taken.

With regards to the PIN, there's a lot of reasons how someone could know what it is; shoulder surfing, a camera on the ATM, as suggested earlier in the thread, if it was taken by someone she knows they might know her PIN if they had seen the letter it came on for example, a hacked chip and PIN reader in a store? - not sure if that last one is possible to be honest

Goldiegirl

In these sort of cases, the most obvious, straightforward explanation is generally the true one.

A member or the family or other person close to the victim has got hold of the card and pin and used it behind the victims back.

Sad but true.