Joint tenancy - Been made liable for other tenants rent arrears - Help

princeofpounds

I signed the tenancy on 7th of may this year and all arrears were already there.

Thanks for all the info, one critical point you haven't been entirely clear on...

Does the above mean that a place on the existing tenancy was assigned to you, or was it a new tenancy?

At the moment, people are assuming that you are liable for the arrears. You probably are if you are being chased for them. But you might not be, if they actually belong to a previous tenancy, so it's important to understand.

Clarkabell

Thanks again for replies

My sons father already provides for him and will for new baby but he also has his own living costs so is not able to help.

I should mention I am Scotland also. I have the agreement that we both signed, it is like this:

MINUTE OF VARIATION

between

Falkirk Council

and

(my cousin)
(myself)

1. This document is an agreement between us, Falkirk council and you (my cousin) and (myself).
2. This tenancy agreement is entered into in terms of Paragraph 1.13 of the tenency agreement entered into between Falkirk council and (my cousin) on 27 March 2003 for (property address) and changes some of the terms of the agreement.
3. The changes to the tenancy agreement are :-
Paragraph 1.1 of the tenancy agreement is varied to the extent that the Scottish Secure Tenancy Agreement is between Falkirk council and (my cousin) and (myself)
4. The remaining conditions of the tenency agreement are unchanged and continue to have full force and effect.
5. The changes to the tenancy agreement will take effect from 7 May 2012.

By signing this agreement you (my cousin) are agreeing to the changes in your tenancy agreement which are set out above.

By signing this agreement you (myself) acknowledge that you are completing a legally binding contract committing you to all the terms of the tenancy agreement, as varied by the terms of this agreement and confirm that a copy of the tenancy agreement dated 27 march 2003 referred to above has been provided to me.

Followed by all our signatures.

I don't really know what all this means or what it means to my situation. I really am clueless.

And I would like to add that I wasn't trying to cheat the council. The situation I was in before led to taking drastic action as the only other way the council were gonna help us was if I made my son and myself homeless. Yes it has backfired but the only intention ever was to provide a secure home for my son which I thought at the time I was doing. We did not lie to the council, my cousin and I were and are sharing the flat, although it has changed that he won't move in the future and that I am now pregnant. There was never any malicious intent to commit fraud to the council.

DVardysShadow

Hmm. I cannot see that OP is liable for arrears arising from before becoming a joint tenant on the information we have. I have very little doubt that the council knew what they were doing in letting OP on to the tenancy in that they thought that they had another person to chase.

If it went to court as a debt, I am strongly of the opinion that a judge would not uphold any order against OP for arrears arising from before the tenancy became joint. If a claim against OP for rent arrears were to be upheld, I would think that the council would need to point the arrears out to OP and make it clear that OP would be "Jointly and Severally" responsible.

On the other hand, I can see a court upholding an eviction o grounds of rent arrears from before that point.

OP, I would suggest that you pay your rent by cheque and with each cheque you send a letter stating the period for which you are paying. And keep a copy of each letter. Do not pay for any period before the Joint Tenancy arose at the expense of any period after the Joint Tenancy. You need as your first line of defence to keep the record perfect from the point the Joint Tenancy arose. This will stand you in good stead with a judge or an ombudsman wherever the matters arising from this issue will go.

Clarkabell

I am paying my half of the rent along with the extra £10 per week for the arrears and my council tax by direct debit. This is paid weekly for each week that goes by, is this ok?

I asked the neighbourhood officer what would happen if eviction did happen as I would still need housing for myself and son and new baby when it arrives and she told me that homelessness is treated differently but her opinion was that when homeless seen the reason for eviction and level of arrears they wouldn't help us!! In other words we would be on the street with no help whatsoever!!

This situation is just a complete mess. I don't know what to expect of the future but whatever it is it looks like wherever we are myself, my son and new baby are gonna be sharing a bedroom somewhere

DVardysShadow

Clarkabell wrote: »

I am paying my half of the rent along with the extra £10 per week for the arrears and my council tax by direct debit. This is paid weekly for each week that goes by, is this ok?

No, that is not OK, unless you are sure that your cousin is paying his share and allocating it to the period after you signed in.

You need to be very careful here. While I am strongly of the opinion that you do not owe a penny of the £1500, the council have scammed you. And very easily they will have you paying to the £1500 before you took on the tenancy at the expense of arrears after that. And in the process they will have swung £1500 arrears on to you.

You need to print out this thread and see {Shelter, CAB, a Neighbourhood Law Centre} and find someone who can say 'Ah, yes, I understand what DVardysShadow is on about'. Not blowing my own trumpet here - but please, if you find someone who does not get what I am on about and tries diverting you, move on and find someone who does understand.

csh_2

I live in the same council area and one of the neighbours on my street was evicted for rent arrears from a housing association house and housed by the council into a homeless flat two streets over on the same day so do not let them bully you into paying money by them threatening to not help if you are homeless.

squinty

Thank you for yout clarification.

You can ingore by ealier post, which was based on Secure tenancies in England and Wales. The rules are different in Scotland.

My understanding is that the Scottish Secure tenancy does allow the tenancy to be assigned more easily, and that is why your cousin was able to add you to the tenancy.

As others have said, if you have signed a new tenancy agreement the arrears would have remained with your cousin. However the deed of variation has the effect of making you fully responsible for all aspects of the tenancy including the arrears.

I disagree with DVardysShadow you are not being scammed - you were aware that your cousin had rent arrears as the council had previously refused the assingment due to rent arrears - yet you still chose to enter into the joint tenancy.

Normally with a joint tenancy (and I'm not aware of there being any difference in Scotland) you are jointly and severably responsible for the debt. This means that you are not just responsible for half of the debt, but responsible until it is all repaid. No one on the forum can advise you if it is acceptable to pay the rent plus £10 per week - this is the decsion of the Council.

You have not made it cear if the Council have started any legal action - but if not there is no immediate threat of you losing your home.

Moving onto you potentially becoming homeless. If this does happen the council will carry out a series of test - are you elegible for housing - are you homeless - are you vulnerable etc, and one of the tests is 'are you intentionally homeless?". If you beome homless because you do not pay the rent there is a strong chance that you will be found to be intentionally homeless and the council will not have any duty to assist.

Clarkabell

Thanks for everything this is an absolute nightmare.

Yes the council are making me liable for the whole amount. The last time the neighbourhood officer was out she said the £10 per week would not be sufficient and served us with a Notice of Proceedings for Recovery of Possession.

I am aware I've been a fool, I knew he had arrears, I didn't know how much and no-one ever even mentioned how they would affect me. I was never made aware I would be put in this position, of course I should have checked what I was getting myself into but I didn't and now I'm paying for my error.

DVardysShadow

squinty wrote: »

Thank you for yout clarification.

You can ingore by ealier post, which was based on Secure tenancies in England and Wales. The rules are different in Scotland.

My understanding is that the Scottish Secure tenancy does allow the tenancy to be assigned more easily, and that is why your cousin was able to add you to the tenancy.

As others have said, if you have signed a new tenancy agreement the arrears would have remained with your cousin. However the deed of variation has the effect of making you fully responsible for all aspects of the tenancy including the arrears.

I disagree with DVardysShadow you are not being scammed - you were aware that your cousin had rent arrears as the council had previously refused the assingment due to rent arrears - yet you still chose to enter into the joint tenancy.

Normally with a joint tenancy (and I'm not aware of there being any difference in Scotland) you are jointly and severably responsible for the debt. This means that you are not just responsible for half of the debt, but responsible until it is all repaid. No one on the forum can advise you if it is acceptable to pay the rent plus £10 per week - this is the decsion of the Council.

Quite plainly the council have scammed the OP. I cannot see why you are letting them off the hook. Plainly, cleverer people than the OP have seen how to swing the liability on to her. And it is not enough to have told the OP that the cousin was in arrears - they have not explained the implications for OP of signing the deed. This is despicable and indefensible.

As for the deed of variation, while it certainly swings a joint and several responsibility onto OP, It is at least arguable that this does not apply to arrears before the date of signing - it reads as very weasel worded precisely for its lack of weasel words and the glaring omission of any text addressing the cousin's prior arrears.

I seriously doubt that if OP left the tenancy right now that the council could ever make the arrears stick to her. I would be outraged if they could. But by attributing £1500 of payments over the next period to past arrears, regrettably new arrears will fall after the date of the deed and become the OP's responsibility.

Shame on Falkirk Council.

BobQ

Would there be any point in complaining to the Local Government Ombudsman about the circumstances in which the OP signed an agreement for devts that were not explained to her? If they are about to ramp up the demands this might make them think. Any impartial observer would conclude (I suggest) that this is not the behaviour you would expect of a public service organisation.