ESA50 - "Can you set an alarm clock.."

Cpt.Scarlet

OP - As has already been said, these are tests of capability, whether your friend needs to, wishes to or requires prompting to do these things are not relevent to these particular questions.

If they require prompting, then this is covered under question 13 initiating actions.

HB58

The first part of the ESA50 deals with physical capability and you need to have a physical reason as to why you could not perform the tasks. The mental health questions come later and deal with concentration, motivation etc.

Edit - sorry, x post with Cpt. Scarlett.

schrodie

harveybobbles wrote: »

Same with the hypothetical cardboard box. Why would they want to pick it up? they see no danger in the box being on the floor/table/chair etc. So they CAN indeed pick a box up, but have no reason to..

Just to show you how skewed this WCA is to throw people off benefits; with respect to the cardboard box descriptor it states:-

"Cannot transfer a light but bulky object such as an empty cardboard box."

So off you go to the jop centre and ask them to find you a job that involves transferring empty cardboard boxes!! :rotfl:

Ellejmorgan

schrodie wrote: »

Just to show you how skewed this WCA is to throw people off benefits; with respect to the cardboard box descriptor it states:-

"Cannot transfer a light but bulky object such as an empty cardboard box."

So off you go to the jop centre and ask them to find you a job that involves transferring empty cardboard boxes!! :rotfl:

Also it doesn't state how big these empty boxes are, are we talking shoe box or washing machine size, it should give the dimensions I think..

the only job I can think of involving empty boxes is in a factory which was require standing for an serious amount of time imo...

Richie-from-the-Boro

This is what, regardless of what you write, the HCP and the DWP are trained to use for interpretation.

.04. [Activity] Picking up and moving or transferring by use of the upper body and arms

Descriptors :

P(a) Cannot pick up and move a 0.5 litre carton full of liquid.
P(b) Cannot pick up and move a one litre carton full of liquid.
P(c) Cannot transfer a light but bulky object such as an empty cardboard box.
P(d) None of the above apply.

This activity relates mainly to upper limb power; however joint movement and coordination may also have to be considered. It is intended to reflect the ability to pick up and transfer articles at waist level, i.e. at a level that requires neither bending down and lifting, nor reaching upwards. It does not include the ability to carry out any activity other than picking up and transferring, i.e. it does not include ability to pour from a carton or jug. All the loads are light and are therefore unlikely to have much impact on spinal problems. However, due consideration should be give to neck pain and the associated problems arising from cervical disc prolapse and marked cervical spondylitis. These conditions may be aggravated by lifting weights in exceptional circumstances.

Within the descriptors, the concept of adaptation exists. There is no requirement to have two hands to achieve the tasks outlined in the descriptors. For example in :

P(c), a person could reasonable manage this by using one hand and supporting the box against another part of their body.

In descriptors P(a) and P(b), if the person could move the weight by using both hands together, they should be considered capable of performing the task.The ability to carry out these functions should be considered with the use of any prosthesis, aid or appliance.

Observed behaviour

Watch for hand, arm and head gestures. Note the ease (or otherwise) with which any coat or jacket is removed and replaced. The claimant may hang up a coat or a jacket allowing observation of shoulder joint and arm action. The claimant may lift their handbag or shopping bag several times during the interview process. They may use a hand to open a door.

Where there is a lack of co-operation in carrying out active neck and shoulder movements then informal observations, coupled with examination of the upper limbs, may allow an estimate of the usual mobility of the shoulder girdle. This may well be confirmed by evidence from the typical day.

Examination

Consideration should be given to joint movement and power. Reduced coordination or other neurological problems such as tremor may have to be assessed when considering these activities.

NOTE01 : p(c) is the cardboard box question by harveybobbles in #3 above.

NOTE02 : These scope descriptors [Pa-d] are used to get a measure of what the claimant is able to do, the HCP and the DWP will then consider domestic activities such as :

- cooking / lifting and carrying saucepans, crockery
- shopping / lifting goods out of shopping trolley or from the supermarket shelves
- dealing with laundry/carrying the laundry
- making tea and coffee
- taking a pizza from the oven / carrying a pizza box

NOTE03 : The bold is my edit bold ! and the cardboard box is nowt to do with a cardboard box [GRINs and exits stage door left]

Ellejmorgan

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

This is what, regardless of what you write, the HCP and the DWP are trained to use for interpretation.

.04. [Activity] Picking up and moving or transferring by use of the upper body and arms

Descriptors :

P(a) Cannot pick up and move a 0.5 litre carton full of liquid.
P(b) Cannot pick up and move a one litre carton full of liquid.
P(c) Cannot transfer a light but bulky object such as an empty cardboard box.
P(d) None of the above apply.

This activity relates mainly to upper limb power; however joint movement and coordination may also have to be considered. It is intended to reflect the ability to pick up and transfer articles at waist level, i.e. at a level that requires neither bending down and lifting, nor reaching upwards. It does not include the ability to carry out any activity other than picking up and transferring, i.e. it does not include ability to pour from a carton or jug. All the loads are light and are therefore unlikely to have much impact on spinal problems. However, due consideration should be give to neck pain and the associated problems arising from cervical disc prolapse and marked cervical spondylitis. These conditions may be aggravated by lifting weights in exceptional circumstances.

Within the descriptors, the concept of adaptation exists. There is no requirement to have two hands to achieve the tasks outlined in the descriptors. For example in :

P(c), a person could reasonable manage this by using one hand and supporting the box against another part of their body.

In descriptors P(a) and P(b), if the person could move the weight by using both hands together, they should be considered capable of performing the task.The ability to carry out these functions should be considered with the use of any prosthesis, aid or appliance.

Observed behaviour

Watch for hand, arm and head gestures. Note the ease (or otherwise) with which any coat or jacket is removed and replaced. The claimant may hang up a coat or a jacket allowing observation of shoulder joint and arm action. The claimant may lift their handbag or shopping bag several times during the interview process. They may use a hand to open a door.

Where there is a lack of co-operation in carrying out active neck and shoulder movements then informal observations, coupled with examination of the upper limbs, may allow an estimate of the usual mobility of the shoulder girdle. This may well be confirmed by evidence from the typical day.

Examination

Consideration should be given to joint movement and power. Reduced coordination or other neurological problems such as tremor may have to be assessed when considering these activities.

NOTE01 : p(c) is the cardboard box question by harveybobbles in #3 above.

NOTE02 : These scope descriptors [Pa-d] are used to get a measure of what the claimant is able to do, the HCP and the DWP will then consider domestic activities such as :

- cooking / lifting and carrying saucepans, crockery
- shopping / lifting goods out of shopping trolley or from the supermarket shelves
- dealing with laundry/carrying the laundry
- making tea and coffee
- taking a pizza from the oven / carrying a pizza box

NOTE03 : The bold is my edit bold ! and the cardboard box is nowt to do with a cardboard box [GRINs and exits stage door left]

Fantastic post and well described, this will help when I submit my next claim, one of the issues I have is a cervical disc prolapse, I am not sure where to start with the claim..
You are always so helpful, thank you

harveybobbles

How would a person who uses cructhes be able to lift a box without causing danger to them selfs?

rogerblack

harveybobbles wrote: »

How would a person who uses cructhes be able to lift a box without causing danger to them selfs?

It does not require the person to stand.

Brassedoff

harveybobbles wrote: »

How would a person who uses cructhes be able to lift a box without causing danger to them selfs?

rogerblack wrote: »

It does not require the person to stand.

You are back in the realms of the virtual wheelchair should you point out they cannot do it with crutches.

Irrespective of the questions and descriptors, you may be able to walk 80 metres with crutches. You may be completely wiped out for the rest of the day for doing so. This means you must also point out the after effects and your "useless state" for the given period following it. You then need to follow that through on the linking questions.

At the same time point out the consciences of doing a task. For example, I may be able to stand at a work bench for a few minutes to fulfill the descriptors, I would then point out that I would need to hold both handles with both hands in order to stand. I would then say I have to sit within a prescribed period, but then point out I would/would not need assistance to complete that task. Give it five minutes and repeat the process in reverse.

I have pointed out that I can stand with the use of crutches.
I cannot use my hands for anything other than holding on to my crutches.
I would have to sit in a unreasonably short period and would need assistance in order to do it safely.
I have pointed out that I need help in reverse.
I would then writeverbatum the manufacturers and OT's instructions in the safe use of the same.
I would then tell them of any side effects my medication has
I would then writeverbatum the manufacturers and OT's instructions in the safe use of the medication I was on if taking it.
I would then point out the points of the Health & Safety at work act. Highlighting the issues any prospective employer would be duty bound to take into account and make reasonable adjustments for. This would be for the consumption of both the DWP and repeat it to any pathway advisor if put into the WRAG.

All that for just one question. Repeat the process for the following ones too.

Please only put the truth down and how it affects the claimant as the trainers and shadow advisors I have been with all say it is just a war of attrition.

GlasweJen

You can always do as brassed off wrote in the first place and tell the truth?