ESA50 - "Can you set an alarm clock.."

harveybobbles

Helping someone to fill out their ESA forms next week. Just looking thru it and some of the questions are sily.

ie "Can you set an alarm clock.. Yes, no, it varies.."

Well the person I'm helping knows HOW to set an alarm clock but doesn't have the inclination or mental capability to do so. So what answer do I give?

Lots of the questions are similar..

"Can you lift a cardbor=ard box.. Yes, no, it varies.."

Well they are capable if lifting a cardboard box, but due to their mental health problems they'd happily leave the cardboard box on the floor as thye see no reason to move it..

mynameistallulah

To the first question, "it varies" - they can do it, sometimes they are not able to as their cognitive functioning is impaired.

Second question, yes, than can - that does not relate to a mental health descriptor, and the fact is they can do it, even if sometimes they are not inclined to do so.

harveybobbles

But to the first question - they'd never bother setting an alarm clock unless someone was there to tell/remind them to do it.

Same with the hypothetical cardboard box. Why would they want to pick it up? they see no danger in the box being on the floor/table/chair etc. So they CAN indeed pick a box up, but have no reason to..

carerof3

I've just received a form to complete for my younger son. I use the guide from www.benefitsandwork.co.uk for assistance with completing the form on mental, cognitive and intellectual disabilities. Fortunately I printed it out when I joined to get access to the guide for my older son, so I don't have to pay to join again.

rogerblack

Consider really, really carefully the wording of the actual descriptors.
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/m-06-11.pdf

The phrasing of the 15 point descriptor is not 'cannot learn', but 'cannot learn to complete'.
If they cannot learn to complete a task, for whatever reason, it is arguable that they may qualify for this.

In general, if there is the least question they may match some descriptor, tick 'it varies' or 'no', and put a fuller explanation in the box.

harveybobbles

Well they know HOW to set an alarm cloc, but have no reason to, nor do they see any reason to WANT to set one.

krisskross

harveybobbles wrote: »

Well they know HOW to set an alarm cloc, but have no reason to, nor do they see any reason to WANT to set one.

I know how to do it and if needed could do it. However as a retired person mostly I have no need of an alarm clock.

I assume the person in question does not work so has no need to get up at a set time which puts him in exactly the same position as me.

So are we both fine or do we both have mental health issues? If the person can complete the exercise of setting an alarm clock whether he needs to or not doesn't have any bearing on it. He can do it.

harveybobbles

But the person in question, due to their cognitive sees no reason to set analarm. And, if they needed to be awake at a certain time for an appointment, they still wouldnt set an alarm as it wouldnt enter their head to do so.

the same can be said for the cardboard box question - well, yes they can lift an empty carbboard box, but as they use two elbow crutches they wouldnt feel safe in doing such a task. So again, do we answer as yes, no or varies?

rogerblack

To expand on my earlier answer.
The alarm clock is a test of ability, it is not a test of if you need an alarm clock.
Can you reasonably learn _TO_COMPLETE_ a simple task such as setting an alarm clock, if required to, several times during the working day.

For example, this might include several sub-actions, each of which has to be performed in sequence, in the correct order, without wandering off in the middle, or crucially - making errors in the task.

If you cannot reasonably reliably throughout the course of a working day (though not continuously) do a task, you can't be said to be able to do it for the purposes of ESA.

If, for example, you set the alarm clock to the wrong time on half the occasions, or wander away in the middle as you forgot what you're doing, or cannot due to fatigue start the task for a large portion of the day, you cannot learn to complete the task.

Learning a task in the abstract, and learning to complete it are very different things.
You can in principle learn to drive, and be unable to pass the test due to a health condition, for example.
You have learned to drive, but you have not learned how to complete the task of driving.

Richie-from-the-Boro

This is what, regardless of what you write, the HCP and the DWP are trained to use for interpretation.

Learning Tasks [Understanding and focus] - Cannot learn how to complete a simple task, such as setting an alarm clock, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder.

.09. Cannot learn how to complete a simple task, such as setting an alarm clock.

This Support Group descriptor reflects ability to learn very basic tasks. How the person learns is not critical. It is the ability to actually learn how to do a task that is important. This activity is intended to be relevant to learning disability of whatever cause, including the result of acquired brain injury. It may also reflect difficulties in understanding language, for example following brain injury or stroke, such that the person is unable to learn how to complete a very basic task.

The length of time taken for the individual to learn a task must be considered, for example if it has taken a person 2 years to learn a basic task, this would not be considered reasonable. Consideration must also be given to the person’s ability to retain the skills to perform the task. For example, if the person was unable to perform the task the next day, they would be considered as not having learned the task. It indicates a severe level of disability and evidence must be present to confirm this level of severity.

Brassedoff

Haveybobbles, I think it answers the question itself. Yes, just because there's no inclination is no reason to say no.

I have used the past six months in and out of hospital to do a welfare benefits training course. I have done ESA and DLA and AA so far so I can do a bit at the CAB. If I were asked the same question I would say no, but then I would put down on the extra information a full reason why it is not possible for the claimant to practically do it. I would add that although the claimant could do it, there is a reasonable reason why the person could not be expected to so it. You don't need to get 15 points on just one question. You do need to make sure you make the reasons for not doing it, reasonable.