Changing system capacity - FIT

noncom_2

Hi all

My parents have just had a system installed using a company that I suspect are, shall we say, a little less than straightforward (they chose not to use the reputable company I recommended, for the sake of a few quid).

They had 14 panels installed about a week ago, and just about got the FIT paperwork submitted for the 31st July cut off before the tariff reduced. However the company had put some of the panels in a different arrangement on the roof from what was promised, so is coming back to move them.

Now, they have told my parents they have some spare panels left over from an industrial estate job which didn't complete, and have offered them to stick a couple more panels on the roof when they come back, to make it up to a 4kW system rather than the 3.5kW declared on the FIT paperwork.

I've told my parents I think this is rather dodgy. I suspect the company will advise them just to keep quiet and claim the tariff from the 4kW system at the pre-31st July rate.

I would presume this is potentially fraudulent. They did not have a 4kW system installed before 31st July, so claiming that tariff and expanding the system later surely isn't allowed. If they re-registered the system at the new post August rate (if that's even allowed) then I think they'd probably lose as much from the cut in rate as they'd gain from increased generation.

What is the legal situation here please? Is it allowable to increase the capacity of a system post-installation? Do you then have to claim the lower tariff?

Thanks
Andy

Martyn1981

Andy, I suspect you couldn't buy a bargepole long enough, not to touch this with!

I've just completed an extension 30/7/12, and I think this would be the only way to treat those extra panels - but suspect changing anything now, will only 'muck up' the registration of the pre Aug install.

Options, add the panels and amend the application, which is guaranteed to get the lower rate.

Lie that the panels were there, and get a new MCS certificate, and hope it can be used to replace the existing one - do I really need to point out how stupid/dangerous this would be.

Add the panels, say nothing, and hope for the next 25 years it's never noticed, TGM figures never challenged, fraud investigation never launched - do I really .......

Leave it alone, get registered, then afterwards re-arrange existing panels and add panels if worth while. Then apply for an extension, which is effectively a new application just for the additional panels. Perfectly fine, possibly not worth the hassle, is the inverter less than 3.68kW or 3.68kW capped, otherwise DNO approval necessary.

Ignoring my bad humour, if the deadline hadn't been passed, then this might be a genuine consideration, but the crucial issue now, is securing the pre Aug deal, don't let anyone, do anything to spoil that.

If there is room for more panels, and the inverter can cope, then by all means quiz me on extensions, but number crunch first how much they are going to charge for the extra panels and the work.

Mart.

munchkin88

They wouldnt be able to claim the larger system under the pre 31st July FiT rate. As the MCS would need to be submitted prior to this date along with application to ensure you get the higher rate.

However, the 14 panels would have now been registered at the higher rate and the new panels can be registered under the new lower rate. As it would be deemed as a system upgrade.

I assume by your post that your parents have 250w panels installed. If they are providing these panels for free then yes, i agree it is abit dodgy. But, if they are offered an additional 2 panels for a fee then that does seem better. But just because they had panels leftover does not suggest that the company is dodgy. We have left over panels from some of our jobs aswell, and we offer them to customers if they request more panels fitted. No point having them sat around the warehouse.

munchkin88

Thats another point that Martin1981 touched upon. You need to ensure the inverter will cope with the new larger system. What inverter do they have?

ps. I design/manage PV installs so i have knowledge on MCS/installs/FiT etc if you need anything.

noncom_2

I can check with them the inverter model to see if that's capable.

How does the "extension" work? Does it require another inverter and/or Generation meter, in which case it surely can't be cost effective (for the sake of 500W), or does it simply add in to the existing inverter and meter, and the FIT would simply be calculated as 7/8 at the old rate and 1/8 at the new rate?

Thanks

Martyn1981

noncom wrote: »

I can check with them the inverter model to see if that's capable.

How does the "extension" work? Does it require another inverter and/or Generation meter, in which case it surely can't be cost effective (for the sake of 500W), or does it simply add in to the existing inverter and meter, and the FIT would simply be calculated as 7/8 at the old rate and 1/8 at the new rate?

Thanks

That's the big question!

For the extension to work (for only 500W) you'd really need it to share the inverter and TGM etc. You'll need to check this out with their FIT supplier, but I suspect they'll have the same policy as EDF (mine), if it shares a TGM, then generation is allocated purely on the Wp of the panels. Orientation isn't taken into account. For me I was adding WNW to ESE so I used a separate TGM, otherwise allocating generation to panel size would have moved 45p ESE units over to 17p WNW.

The above paragraph is pretty much irrelevant if the same roof is being used, which I suspect from your post (I'm assuming the company aren't thinking about a totally different location).

Theoretically the extension would then be simple, my only concern is 'messing about' before the contract has been finalised. This is only paranoia on my behalf, but wondering what could go wrong if there are two contracts floating around, unfinished at the same time.

Couple of points (assuming the extra panels will be offered really cheap), what is the inverter, can it cope. It almost certainly will be able to cope with a couple more in wattage terms, unless it's already at the limit on string voltage. Munchkin88 will probably know more about that than me.

Secondly, check the specific Wp of the existing and additional panels, if you add 501Wp to an existing 3,500Wp, then the extension will be at the greater than 4kWp rate (13p?). If there’s enough room, and the inverter is up to it, is it even worth fitting more panels, maybe 1kWp or so?

Mart.

thenudeone

Any system capable of exporting more than 3.680kW (16A) must have approval from the local electricity distributor BEFORE installation.

In addition to the legitimate concerns listed above, you'd need to check that this limit isn't breached. If the inverter is rated at 3.68kW or lower, you're okay on that point.

jennifernil

Is it allowed to install an additional system at an address that is already receiving a FIT payment?

Our son already has a 4kwp system installed in November 2011, so receiving the highest rate FIT.

He wanted to also install a wind turbine (he lives out in the countryside), and has (unwisely in my opinion) paid a "deposit" to an installer/supplier to apply for PP. If the PP was declined then he was to be able to use this "deposit" on some other renewables project.

Due to a campaign by some rather distant neighbours, and objections from nearer neighbours, his application has been refused. So now he has to find something to spend the money on.

He has loads of roof space, can he fit a second system and receive FIT at the current rate for this, or would this also affect what he gets paid at present?

If not, what else could he use the money on?

Martyn1981

Hi jennifernil, there is no reason why your son can't 'try' to have more PV installed, but there are a few important factors.

The rate he gets paid under FITs for the new system (the old FITs is safe as long as he doesn't alter the original kit) will be at the new rate that exists when it's registered for FITs. Also the banding tariff will take into account his existing system, so:

if he has 4kWp and adds 2kWp, then the new system of 2kWp will get the rate applicable for 4-10kWp, since the total is 6kWp.

if he has 4kWp and added 6.1kWp, then the new system of 6.1kWp will get the rate applicable for 10-50kWp, since the total is 10.1kWp.

So I'd assume your son would consider adding upto 6kWp.

Another important factor that I mentioned earlier is the District Network Operator (DNO). They only allow 3.68kW export under 'self-commissioning'. Anymore than that will require prior approval by them. Your son's current system may have an inverter smaller than 3.68kW, or limited to 3.68kW, or whose efficiency multiplied by 4kWp is 3.68kW or less.

If he was seriously considering a sizeable wind turbine (on top of the PV) then I suspect he's already considered this. Possibly his property has a 3 phase supply already in place (effectively tripling his potential export). This needs to be clarified, as without prior approval, the DNO will not allow the new system to be switched on.

He should contact his FITs provider just to get confirmation on their policies regarding extensions. I'd suggest doing it by e-mail (not phone) so you have some documented evidence.

Tax, I'm very unclear on this (as is the govt. I suspect) but potentially there is a suggestion, that income tax could be applied to a PV system able to produce 20% more leccy than the property consumes. This is hard to understand, does it apply to each properties demand, or to an average properties demand, say 3,600kWh's per year +20%?

So considerations:-
will a FITs rate of 14.4p (instead of the new 16p) be ok?
Does he have (require) DNO approval?
How simple will the registration be for the new system?
Is he clued up on any potential tax issues?

If those points are ok, and he has a large roof, then not actually any real problems.

Mart.

Edit: I'm surprised the issue of extensions has come up a few times now. I think I'll add a section to the FAQ thread. M.

jennifernil

Thanks, that is very helpful, I will print that out and give to him. He thought that he would not be allowed to add a second system and retain the original rate of FIT on the first system.

As far as I understand there is a 3 phase supply crossing his land, near to where the wind turbine would have gone, but the house is not connected to it and has the usual single phase supply.

Martyn1981

jennifernil wrote: »

Thanks, that is very helpful, I will print that out and give to him. He thought that he would not be allowed to add a second system and retain the original rate of FIT on the first system.

Hiya jennifernil, just to clarify something that I worded poorly earlier:-

Martyn1981 wrote: »

The rate he gets paid under FITs for the new system (the old FITs is safe as long as he doesn't alter the original kit)

The crucial issue is not to 'mess about' with the original panels. You can change the inverter, after all it will need replacing at some point. So a couple of examples;

1. For your son, if he had DNO approval, and is adding panels with the same orientation as the existing system, then he may add a totally separate system, or possibly replace the current inverter with one suitable for the existing and new panels eg 8kW inverter (if adding another 4kWp).

2. Someone with a 2kWp system, and room for another 2kWp, might replace their 2kW(ish) inverter with a 4kW(ish) inverter. If the new inverter is under 3.68kW, or capped, or efficiency times panels = 3.68kW or less, then DNO prior approval would not normally be required.

Just trying to clarify in case anyone thought they couldn't 'play' with their current set-up at all.

Mart.

PS. You may hear horror stories about the DNO's, being obstructive and jobsworth. So I rang them direct and asked what I could (or couldn't) do. I found mine (Western Power Distribution) one of the most friendly and helpful organisations I've ever dealt with. You just have to play within the rules, since their primary consideration isn't you, but preventing the infrastructure from blowing up.

WPD have a very tough reputation. When I rang EDF to ask them to check my extension application (30/7/12) the 'bod' was very impressed that I'd got DNO approval, then said 'your DNO must be good, you'd never get permission from our guys, we're with WPD'. I nearly wet myself laughing! M.