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Where to get boundary measurements?

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Comments

  • gazfocus
    gazfocus Posts: 2,405 Forumite
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    edited 1 August 2012 at 6:24PM
    Did you not read the link from gardenlaw? Measurement from a plan doesn't tell you much. Physical features rule, to put it bluntly.

    In this case, looks pretty clear the the stone wall, not the fence, is the boundary. Looks to be in the right position (which is, yes, a few metres out if you want to think about it on terms of measurements)

    Yes, I did look at the link from gardenlaw, however, as much as physical features might rule if someone is disputing it, that's not a 'law' and as I said, my solicitor has confirmed that we are within our rights to move our fence. The council have also said as much.
    jimjames wrote: »
    Based on the photo, what about the houses next door? If the boundary for one suddenly jumps 20ft back then could that not raise an issue with the other properties no longer being in line?

    Yes, it would affect the house next door being 'in line' but without wanting to sound funny, why is that my problem? I'm not trying to be funny, but I don't see the issue. It could simply be that I have bothered to do something about it and the neighbour hasn't?

    Please understand that I am not trying to be awkward but I am just trying to understand if extending the garden is going to be possible.
  • princeofpounds
    princeofpounds Posts: 10,396 Forumite
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    gazfocus wrote: »
    Yes, I did look at the link from gardenlaw, however, as much as physical features might rule if someone is disputing it, that's not a 'law' and as I said, my solicitor has confirmed that we are within our rights to move our fence. The council have also said as much.

    I think you are misunderstanding me, if only very slightly.

    The precedence of physical features is indeed a well-established feature of case law. Land registry plans can have features in the wrong place, sometimes due to simple margin of error (which on a map that scale is at least a metre) and sometimes because they are simply wrong.

    There is no law that says 'measure the title plan to find your boundaries', unless there are zero indications on the ground of where the real boundary might be. Disputes, or understanding how to be on the right side of one, are really key to setting boundaries because if there is no dispute or potential for one you can put a fence wherever you want.

    I pointed out in my first post that I agree with your solicitor, and I explained why with reference to how courts actually determine boundaries.

    So I am backing you up in every way, but I think it is crucial for you to understand why because the rationale is not '4mm on the plan'. The rationale is the stone wall is the boundary because it is the physic feature that best describes the red line on the plan.
  • princeofpounds
    princeofpounds Posts: 10,396 Forumite
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    jimjames wrote: »
    Based on the photo, what about the houses next door? If the boundary for one suddenly jumps 20ft back then could that not raise an issue with the other properties no longer being in line?

    It's no issue at all. The fence clearly is not the boundary as it is marked separately to the red line. The title plan of the land behind is the one that needs to be reconciled if any.
  • gazfocus
    gazfocus Posts: 2,405 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    I think you are misunderstanding me, if only very slightly.

    The precedence of physical features is indeed a well-established feature of case law. Land registry plans can have features in the wrong place, sometimes due to simple margin of error (which on a map that scale is at least a metre) and sometimes because they are simply wrong.

    There is no law that says 'measure the title plan to find your boundaries', unless there are zero indications on the ground of where the real boundary might be. Disputes, or understanding how to be on the right side of one, are really key to setting boundaries because if there is no dispute or potential for one you can put a fence wherever you want.

    I pointed out in my first post that I agree with your solicitor, and I explained why with reference to how courts actually determine boundaries.

    So I am backing you up in every way, but I think it is crucial for you to understand why because the rationale is not '4mm on the plan'. The rationale is the stone wall is the boundary because it is the physic feature that best describes the red line on the plan.

    Thanks, I see what you mean about the physical boundary, etc, but the problem is, what if it's actually the stone wall that's shown as the grey line in the title plan? The stone wall isn't in the right position to be anywhere near the red outline and while I agree that the red outline could not be accurate, it couldn't possibly be 3m-5m out surely.

    The solicitor has seen the plans and the aerial photo and seems to believe we can move the fence. The council's response was 'do what you want' sort of thing but they have not seen the plans or anything.

    Would it be worth me trying to get an appointment to see a planning officer or surveyor?
  • Land_Registry
    Land_Registry Posts: 6,053 Organisation Representative
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    edited 2 August 2012 at 8:46AM
    The precedence of physical features is indeed a well-established feature of case law. Land registry plans can have features in the wrong place, sometimes due to simple margin of error (which on a map that scale is at least a metre) and sometimes because they are simply wrong.

    There is no law that says 'measure the title plan to find your boundaries', unless there are zero indications on the ground of where the real boundary might be. Disputes, or understanding how to be on the right side of one, are really key to setting boundaries because if there is no dispute or potential for one you can put a fence wherever you want.

    I think it is crucial for you to understand why because the rationale is not '4mm on the plan'. The rationale is the stone wall is the boundary because it is the physic feature that best describes the red line on the plan.

    I would recommend that you read our Public Guide 19 on the subject of title plans and boundaries. Section 4 in particular explains the purpose of the title plan and how they show the 'general' position of boundaries unless they are shown as having been determined

    The title plan is based on the Ordnance Survey (OS) detail available when the property is first registered with us. I would assume that in this case this would have been at the time that the property was sold by the developer. The features (black, grey etc lines) are OS detail based on the features present when they surveyed the development.

    The red line is added by Land Registry to show the general boundaries to the property. The red line will most likely have been drawn based largely on the plan included in the actual Transfer from the developer to the first owner (you will probably have a copy of that Transfer) and the OS detail available.

    If you believe an error has been made in registering the property (comparing the Transfer plan and title plan should give you a clue or indeed looking at your neighbour's title plans) then you should contact the relevant office dealing with your property

    Princeofpounds offers a useful observation re the best rationale to apply. And it is important to note that in some cases fences (or other features) are erected not to define an actual legal boundary but simply to avoid disputes or putting a buyer off even.

    The earlier posts from April make some useful points re this and the one by propertyman seems especially relevant. Developers will often seek to keep the potential for boundary issues to a minimum and it is quite possible that the contours/type of the land to the rear meant that is was easier to fence the property as it stands - only they though would be able to tell you that as it seems likely that the first owner did not ask the same question, probably because they saw a fence which ran the length of all the properties so why would that not be the actual boundary?

    Developers will often erect new fences just inside existing boundaries simply to avoid 'upset' with neighbours adjoining their development and to make the plots more saleable through having nice new fences rather than potentially a variety of fences, walls etc - I appreciate that this appears not to be the case here but it can be relevant in some circumstances.

    The issue of the land beyond your fence then arises and quite naturally a developer will rarely wish to retain ownership unless for example the land adjoins another piece of land which could be developed at some stage.

    Looking at the title plan extract and aerial image the 'grey line' would appear to relate to the existing fence line to the rear of each property. Whilst a title plan will, as I mentioned, only show the general boundaries you should be able to use the scale provided to reasonably establish what feature that grey line represents - as a general guide, the width of a line on a 1:1250 Ordnance Survey map roughly represents 0.3 metres on the ground. Whatever measurement you use e.g. 1mm, 1cm, 1 inch you simply multiply it 1250 times.

    Once you have established that then you should have a good idea as to whether your legal boundary actually extends further. This may also be true for your neighbours as well.

    What you then decide to do is not something I can comment on although princeofpounds view re avoiding a dispute seems to be a sound one

    Finally - we do provide extensive guidance with regards our plans in Practice Guide 40 and associated supplements
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
  • gazfocus
    gazfocus Posts: 2,405 Forumite
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    Thanks for all the advice.

    I have received a quote from a land surveyor who said they are registered with the Land Registry and can obtain autoCAD drawings of the plot and will come and mark out the actual boundary for a fee. Depending on the cost of filling in such a void in the ground level, I think this would be the best route to take.
  • princeofpounds
    princeofpounds Posts: 10,396 Forumite
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    Thanks, I see what you mean about the physical boundary, etc, but the problem is, what if it's actually the stone wall that's shown as the grey line in the title plan? The stone wall isn't in the right position to be anywhere near the red outline and while I agree that the red outline could not be accurate, it couldn't possibly be 3m-5m out surely.

    ah, well maybe I didn't interpret the photo right, what I thought was the stone wall looks to be in the right position more or less. Is it a path then or something that runs parallel to the back fences?
  • Land_Registry
    Land_Registry Posts: 6,053 Organisation Representative
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    gazfocus wrote: »
    Thanks for all the advice.

    I have received a quote from a land surveyor who said they are registered with the Land Registry and can obtain autoCAD drawings of the plot and will come and mark out the actual boundary for a fee. Depending on the cost of filling in such a void in the ground level, I think this would be the best route to take.

    Land Registry do not register/approve surveyors so I suspect he/she is offering a service which prepares a land registry compliant plan i.e. to a scale, north point etc etc

    He/she will interpret the plan(s) you have and mark out the boundary based on their interpretation. This is always useful/helpful but it is important to note that all anyone can ever do is offer a view. A professional surveyor has the significant advantage of using their experience and knowledge but it is important to recognise that it is simply an interpretation in much the same way as Land Registry might interpret something or indeed a neighbour.

    I mention this not as a slight against the surveyor but simply to emphasise the point that one person's view does not outweigh another's simply because they are a surveyor or indeed a Land Registry representative. For example you may have seen high-profile court cases re boundary disputes where both sides have used a surveyor and each have offered a different interpretation - in the end the only view which really counted was the courts.

    In your case though there appears to be no dispute with a neighbour but simply your own efforts to identify the extent of your property. The posts of propertyman and Princeofpounds on that point remain relevant.
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
  • gazfocus
    gazfocus Posts: 2,405 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    Land Registry do not register/approve surveyors so I suspect he/she is offering a service which prepares a land registry compliant plan i.e. to a scale, north point etc etc

    He/she will interpret the plan(s) you have and mark out the boundary based on their interpretation. This is always useful/helpful but it is important to note that all anyone can ever do is offer a view. A professional surveyor has the significant advantage of using their experience and knowledge but it is important to recognise that it is simply an interpretation in much the same way as Land Registry might interpret something or indeed a neighbour.

    I mention this not as a slight against the surveyor but simply to emphasise the point that one person's view does not outweigh another's simply because they are a surveyor or indeed a Land Registry representative. For example you may have seen high-profile court cases re boundary disputes where both sides have used a surveyor and each have offered a different interpretation - in the end the only view which really counted was the courts.

    In your case though there appears to be no dispute with a neighbour but simply your own efforts to identify the extent of your property. The posts of propertyman and Princeofpounds on that point remain relevant.
    Thanks,

    I completely understand what you say, however, the surveryors said (and I quote)
    There is not a lot we can do with the drawing that you have as they are in pdf format and such a small scale the thick red line will scale about 1/2 a metre. We are registered with the land registry and can log on to there system to obtain a digital copy in autoCAD format where we can obtain GPS co-ordinates to national grid.
    Can you please let me know if this is genuine as obviously it doesn't bode well if a company is telling lies.
  • Land_Registry
    Land_Registry Posts: 6,053 Organisation Representative
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    gazfocus wrote: »
    There is not a lot we can do with the drawing that you have as they are in pdf format and such a small scale the thick red line will scale about 1/2 a metre. We are registered with the land registry and can log on to there system to obtain a digital copy in autoCAD format where we can obtain GPS co-ordinates to national grid.

    Can you please let me know if this is genuine as obviously it doesn't bode well if a company is telling lies.

    We offer two main online services to customers.
    1. The Find a Property service, which you probably used, provides the customer with a pdf of the title plan and/or register; and
    2. Business e-services, which professional customers often use which also provides a pdf of the title plan and/or register and a range of other services related to conveyancing but not for the purchase of additional plans or related data
    Both services require customers/users to register as users with Land Registry in the same way as MSE requires us all to register in order to post.

    We also offer a range of commercial services, not accessible via the online services I mention, where we export certain data which they can then overlay on their own Geographical Information System (GIS). It is possible that the customer may be able to convert the data to autoCAD format but it is not something we provide ourselves.

    It is also important to note that such extent data, like any other plans data, will be subject to the usual accuracy issues - the same way as any line drawn on a plan/system/piece of paper, they are simply lines which seek to demonstrate the position of structures/features that exist on the ground when they were drawn.

    The key for you though would appear to be that you wish to obtain a professional opinion on where your legal boundary lies. A professional surveyor should be able to provide that for you.
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
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