Employer leased car and PCN's problems!!

ellenpal

Hi there,
Well, I need some advice about my leased car through my employer. To make a long and frustrating story short, I have had a few CCTV PCN's paid for through salary deduction and here's how it happened.

The PCN's are first sent to the lease company, sometimes this is done within some days, sometimes weeks. The lease company will automatically pay these PCN's without notifying me or my employer. Then, the lease company will send a "recharge" notice to my employer to pay up the fine as well as an admin fee to the lease company. Now here is the worst part, I don't find out about the PCN until after I receive a letter from my employer that my salary will be duducted the following month for the PCN charges!

Here's why this is such a problem-the right to appeal the PCN has been taken away from me. Anytime a PCN is paid, the council closes the case and will not hear any evidence for an appeal. By the lease company paying for the PCN essentially sends a message that I, as the driver, am admitting guilt for the PCN. The lease company does not care if I have any legitimate appeal, they just say it's part of the contract to pay the PCN as they receive it-and without getting any consent from anybody.

Am I the only one who thinks this absurd practice must be illegal? If I had been driving a vehicle registered solely in my name, I would have had the opportunity to look over the PCN, decide if I had grounds for appeal, and follow through accordingly and choose to pay or not until such time an appeal decision is made. With this leased car, I have none of these options yet I am totally 100% responsible to not only pay the PCN by way of salary deductions but also the lease company's admin fees!

By the way, I have tried to submit appeals for the PCN's to the council but it's not working-the case has been closed and I get no joy. I think that my only recourse will be to try to get some reimbursement from the lease company itself on the grounds that they have taken away my basic right to appeal...but has this been done before?

I was hoping someone out there would have some advice about this issue. Have there been any court cases regarding this type of problem? Desperate for some advice here, please help!

Really feeling like I have been robbed here

Coupon-mad

ellenpal wrote: »

Hi there,
Well, I need some advice about my leased car through my employer. To make a long and frustrating story short, I have had a few CCTV PCN's paid for through salary deduction...

You have not told us the main bit of information!

You have mentioned 'the Council' but are we talking ONLY about Council PCNs or some fake ones from private companies?

If it's the former then depending upon your car lease t&cs they can pay these because the responsibility lies with the owner, not the driver. It's not your PCN to appeal and I don't think they have to let you try the first appeal (which most people get rejected anyway). I guess at least you are being charged when the PCNs are still at the discount amount? But you could talk to your Union about the unfairness of it all - or just not collect so many PCNs...!

But if it's fake PCNs (private Parking Charge Notices) you are posting about in some cases, then see my reply #9 on this thread from a few minutes ago, with all the links where the situation has been done to death in recent threads in the last few weeks:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4098563

HTH

ellenpal

thanks for that.

but, this was not from a private car park. these were from normal CCTV PCN's for stree parking violations-of which I do feel were completely appealable due to extinuating circumstances (but I won't go into that now).

do you happen to know if anyone has been able to claim back from their leasing companies for normal, council issued fines plus the admin fees?

Coupon-mad

Nope, never seen a post about it on here or on other forums.

Not unless your car lease t&cs don't allow them to do this (but I strongly suspect they do). It is not your PCN.

I used to be a driver as well and my t&cs meant the same would have happened to me - but I never got any PCNs and was only in that job 6 months anyway.

ellenpal

Coupon-mad wrote: »

You have not told us the main bit of information!

You have mentioned 'the Council' but are we talking ONLY about Council PCNs or some fake ones from private companies?


HTH

Hi, these are legit PCN's, not those fake car park ones. So, I think it makes the situation even worse. The council is not going to hear my appeal and the lease company doesn't care because they've got some extra admin fees and my employer doesn't care because it's not their money, they just take it directly from my pay. What a nightmare!

Stephen_Leak

Car hire/leasing contract T&Cs usually have a clause about fines or penalties, ie. legally enforceable fines or penalties from councils, police, train operators and Transport for London. Which these are. Fair enough.

But who do their T&C's say is responsible for these? The customer (your employer) or the driver (you)?

ellenpal

yeah, I do think the PCN fine and the admin fees are in the contract that I have to pay them.

But, what really gets me is the forced payment which takes away my right to appeal-now that part must be illegal. I don't mind paying what I owe, but I do want a fair fight.

bargepole

ellenpal wrote: »

yeah, I do think the PCN fine and the admin fees are in the contract that I have to pay them.

But, what really gets me is the forced payment which takes away my right to appeal-now that part must be illegal. I don't mind paying what I owe, but I do want a fair fight.

As others have said, it's not "your" right to appeal, because with Council PCNs the responsibility for payment lies with the registered keeper, in this case the leasing company.

I'd guess that the only thing you could do is raise a formal grievance with your employer - maybe other company car users would join in with that - and see if your employer can renegotiate the terms with the leasing company.

Alternatively, why not see if your employer will pay you a monthly car allowance instead of a company car (usually more efficient, tax wise) and then you will be the registered keeper.

Stephen_Leak

ellenpal wrote: »

yeah, I do think the PCN fine and the admin fees are in the contract that I have to pay them. <snip>

If the car hire/lease contract says that the driver (you) is responsible (and all the one's I've seen when renting cars do), then why are they involving a third party? I would argue that they are breaching their own contract, plus all the usual confidentiality and data protection issues.

If the car hire/lease contract says that the renter (your employer) is responsible, then you're stuffed.

There are days, when I wonder who are the bigger crooks: PPCs or these car hire/lease companies. Would you care to name & shame?

ellenpal

Stephen_Leak wrote: »

Would you care to name & shame?

I would love too! But, I am a bit afraid of any possible reprecussions. Interestingly enough, it is a council!

EHBA

Ellenpal has raised a serious point that effects all lease car drivers. Basically every lease car or company car driver is stitched up on their contract and if following the normal channels, is unable to appeal.

I received this letter after complaining to our Fleet Manager that the Lease company had already paid a charge that I would have appealed.

Although the lease co sent this letter direct to the relevant authority, as it it turned out, I had no financial need to follow through with an appeal, i.e I am not out of pocket, the lease company is.

If I had 'appealed' I suspect the 'authority' would have said the matter was closed as it had been paid.

Re Penalty Notice Reference xxx
Veh Reg No xxx
Long Term Lease Hire Agreement from xx to xx

We would like to confirm that XYZ Lease Co are the registered keeper of the above vehicle and that the named driver shown below operates this vehicle on a lease arrangement with us.

Please accept this letter as formal confirmation that XYZ Lease Company authorise the named driver for the purposes of registering an appeal and or making representation against this matter.

We further advise you that by referring the administration of this Penalty Notice to the named driver, we completely exonerate ourselves from any excalation of costs or any court action incurred as a result of this action.

Please ensure all future communications regarding this matter are referred solely to the driver named below.

Thanks etc...

Yours Faithfully
XYZ Lease Company

named Driver xx xx
Address xxxxxxxxxxx

I suspect this is a template letter for lease companies that is very rarely used. It is not in the lease company or the employer companies interests to make anyone aware of it.