We’d like to remind Forumites to please avoid political debate on the Forum.
This is to keep it a safe and useful space for MoneySaving discussions. Threads that are – or become – political in nature may be removed in line with the Forum’s rules. Thank you for your understanding.
📨 Have you signed up to the Forum's new Email Digest yet? Get a selection of trending threads sent straight to your inbox daily, weekly or monthly!
The Forum now has a brand new text editor, adding a bunch of handy features to use when creating posts. Read more in our how-to guide
Race discrimination harassment - self representation
Comments
-
in the reports I have I am asking for training that was denied.
the performance issues they brought forward was, why I haven't answered and email/invitation for the meeting. an email never sent. and they reported that I was not organised because I didn't answer that email. then I demonstrated that they haven't sent that email
other issue would be why it took me 2 hoours in answering and urgent email. the same email arrived to them but they were not telling me anything, and because the presure I missed to see that email. becaues I was expecting for that email.
other issue for example was because I made a mistake between a red and dark red and the person that was harassing me said I didn't know what it was the concept of that color.
other was in regards of a document that they said I didn't include an information, and the document was with that info and it was signed and approved, and I had to show after the meeting.
issues would be of things they didnt know. I had to correct them. but it still will appear as if I didn't know. when they were the ones didn't know. I am qualified. they were not.
everything they asked I have done, but then in every meeting they will come with that kind of issues always different, never a follow up of previous issues.
thent hey say customer were complaining and this was lack of communication.
and many examples that I expressed in my reports.
I challenged the letter of dismissal with appeal arising clearly discrimination.
I was working in team first then I was moved to another team and the problem started with that girl, it was a team of different nationalities for different markets.princessdon wrote: »Performance Management goes two ways
Eg - Manager says, you are not performing XXX part of your job to a high enough standard
Employee says - How can I acheive this, what support can you give, what training can I do, do you have suggestions etc
An employee who is later dismissed for performance related issues who then claims racial discrimination would be asked for
a) proof the performance issues were based on race and not performance
b) Evidence they challenged this (where are your emails to HR stating that you beleive you are racially discriminated against
C) A diary showing their days and each instance.
Do you have any of the above?
Or are you "assuming" that because of your race this means your performance can't be low? How do you know it isn't a performance issue but a race issue? Beleive it or not any one (race, gender, sexual orientation etc) can be underperforming.0 -
in the reports I have I am asking for training that was denied.
the performance issues they brought forward was, why I haven't answered and email/invitation for the meeting. an email never sent. and they reported that I was not organised because I didn't answer that email. then I demonstrated that they haven't sent that email
other issue would be why it took me 2 hoours in answering and urgent email. the same email arrived to them but they were not telling me anything, and because the presure I missed to see that email. becaues I was expecting for that email.
other issue for example was because I made a mistake between a red and dark red and the person that was harassing me said I didn't know what it was the concept of that color.
other was in regards of a document that they said I didn't include an information, and the document was with that info and it was signed and approved, and I had to show after the meeting.
issues would be of things they didnt know. I had to correct them. but it still will appear as if I didn't know. when they were the ones didn't know. I am qualified. they were not.
everything they asked I have done, but then in every meeting they will come with that kind of issues always different, never a follow up of previous issues.
thent hey say customer were complaining and this was lack of communication.
and many examples that I expressed in my reports.
I challenged the letter of dismissal with appeal arising clearly discrimination.
I was working in team first then I was moved to another team and the problem started with that girl, it was a team of different nationalities for different markets.
None of that relates to race?0 -
the first time I reported the bad treatment, I was told that that person is know as intolerant to people and because her lack in communication skills they didn't accept her to take on the next level. but after this complaint the performance issue started.
and the manager said that to me, she said because she is of that nationality she is just looking for efficiency and that even doing my best was not enought. I said that I was doing the things right, that all they were doing is to make me fail and were treating me different, and also bad treated for the girl that initiated all.mynameistallulah wrote: »Perhaps they were saying that the other person was more adept at handling the customers because they had more of an understanding of the their culture/ values etc?0 -
Well, but the reason they were doing that is because the race, that is the difficult part, what is why is difficult to demonstrate it, but to be discrimination doesn't have to be over and scream in front of everything "we don't want you because you are of different origin"
the concept itself of discrimination implies more than that. and it goes in less favorable treatment, ditremental treatment, and have comparators. otherwise would be impossible to conclude the act of discrimination.
so if my boss tells me to sent her emails instead to go to her desk, and she goes to other people desks and talks to them. for me that is discrimination even if she doesn't scream it. and appart from that I am bullied and harassed.
well, I spoke to some of my colleagues and a couple of them are willing to support me. I still have to speak to other people.mynameistallulah wrote: »None of that relates to race?0 -
When I complained about the bad treatment of the person harassing me, the manager justified with the advantages of her origins and culture, that compared to mine it will be superior and that doing my best was not enough.
I don't like to point this out, but what you have said here doesn't prove any racism. It is a point of fact that there are many situations where familiarity with the culture is a valid and legitimate criteria for professional judgements. For example, in my field of social work, I am regularly asked to conduct interviews and assessments (although this is not my job to do really) with certain families in the local community - because there is a desperate shortage of social workers who speak Pathan fluently and know the culture of the North West frontier of Pakistand and Afghanistan. Where I have lived at one time. It is just as true for people of other ethnicities working in a prevailing "English" environment, that if they do not understand the culture sufficiently well then this can have negative impacts.
And in terms of performance - trying your best isn't always enough.0 -
Well, but the reason they were doing that is because the race, that is the difficult part, what is why is difficult to demonstrate it, but to be discrimination doesn't have to be over and scream in front of everything "we don't want you because you are of different origin"
the concept itself of discrimination implies more than that. and it goes in less favorable treatment, ditremental treatment, and have comparators. otherwise would be impossible to conclude the act of discrimination.
so if my boss tells me to sent her emails instead to go to her desk, and she goes to other people desks and talks to them. for me that is discrimination even if she doesn't scream it. and appart from that I am bullied and harassed.
well, I spoke to some of my colleagues and a couple of them are willing to support me. I still have to speak to other people.
my boss did all that and I'm white and so is he.
So what you are saying is that it is impossible for anyone to be nasty to a black person etc that it has be be racist?
So if I go up and hit a black person because I'm drunk, it's not because I'm drunk or violent! but that I'm a racist?0 -
Well, but the reason they were doing that is because the race, that is the difficult part, what is why is difficult to demonstrate it, but to be discrimination doesn't have to be over and scream in front of everything "we don't want you because you are of different origin"
You're right, no-one has to be screaming racism to be racist.
Your issue is that a court of law doesn't work off what you feel - it works off evidence.
So yes, they may have been doing ALL those things with racism being the driving force; but without evidence, a court will not side with you. This is why discrimination is so very, very difficult to prove, because most people do NOT scream their intentions. And the company will be able to refute everything you say with an issue of performance, or business, or personality clash - anything but racism.the concept itself of discrimination implies more than that. and it goes in less favorable treatment, ditremental treatment, and have comparators. otherwise would be impossible to conclude the act of discrimination.
...and in court is IS often impossible to conclude. Hence all our earlier advice!so if my boss tells me to sent her emails instead to go to her desk, and she goes to other people desks and talks to them. for me that is discrimination even if she doesn't scream it. and appart from that I am bullied and harassed.
It may be discriminating against you because she doesn't like you. It doesn't make it racist. Even if it is racist, she's not going to say that at an ET. And therein lies your problem. I wish I had something more positive to say, but I don't.well, I spoke to some of my colleagues and a couple of them are willing to support me. I still have to speak to other people.
Just a heads up: you may find that once they actually have to speak out against the employer they will NOT actively support you, I'm afraid. It's one thing getting all principled in favour of something; it's another putting their jobs at risk.
KiKi' <-- See that? It's called an apostrophe. It does not mean "hey, look out, here comes an S".0 -
the performance issues they brought forward was, why I haven't answered and email/invitation for the meeting. an email never sent. and they reported that I was not organised because I didn't answer that email. then I demonstrated that they haven't sent that email
other issue would be why it took me 2 hoours in answering and urgent email. the same email arrived to them but they were not telling me anything, and because the presure I missed to see that email. becaues I was expecting for that email.
The points you've highlighted in your post above will be part of your evidence to dispute your former employer's claims of poor performance. However, you need to stick to the race discrimination issue from your perspective.
They will sling mud at you and you will have to do your best to unpick it during cross-examination, to show that it was not the genuine reason, such as the examples you've given above.
So... my interpretation of your post is that you are claiming your employer referred to cultural issues? I'm afraid it's not exactly clear what has happened other than the fact you were performance managed; which is not unlawful in itself.
If you're saying that you believe your former employer was prejudiced against a certain race and those people were treated less favourably, then you will need to state this more explicitly.
If you're saying you made a complaint of discrimination AND THEN the performance management started, then that could come under victimisation (providing your complaint was made in good faith).
I would advise you to take a deep breath and think about the facts of your case and how those facts relate to race discrimination.
People are talking a lot about evidence, but you can serve a questionnaire (if you're still in time), you can also make requests for information at any time. Your former employer will also have to disclose their evidence and you will have a chance to look at that to see if there is any way you can disprove it.
Not forgetting that your own oral evidence under oath is also "evidence" and the tribunal will make up their own minds as to whose evidence they prefer if the two sides are at odds.
There was a case last year - http://embedit.in/XdEGEvarEh - and from memory the burden of proof for race discrimination was shifted as a result of references by the employer to cultural differences regarding where the Claimant was from and her way of doing things being reflective of that different culture.
Normally though, I would think an indirect race discrimination claim would be more suited to the situation where an employer is applying a provision, criterion or practice (such as familiarity with a culture) which would disproportionately affect one group of people (with a protected characteristic) than another.0 -
What you are saying IF true and IF it can be proven MAY be grounds for unfair dismissal - but not as racial discrimination from what I can see.
I can't see any evidence that you are being treat differently because of race.
How long had you worked for them? Was it over 1 year?0 -
princessdon wrote: »How long had you worked for them? Was it over 1 year?
No it wasn't. The OP said that earlier. So they have no claim for unfair dismissal.0
This discussion has been closed.
Confirm your email address to Create Threads and Reply
Categories
- All Categories
- 354.3K Banking & Borrowing
- 254.4K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
- 455.4K Spending & Discounts
- 247.3K Work, Benefits & Business
- 604K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
- 178.4K Life & Family
- 261.5K Travel & Transport
- 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
- 16K Discuss & Feedback
- 37.7K Read-Only Boards