Race discrimination harassment - self representation

Mashita

I am hopeful that someone could give some advice about self representing in race discrimination.

I recently submitted an ET1 stating alone race discrimination and it was accepted. The letter of confirmation said that a copy of my claim was sent to ex-employer and to ACAS.



I suffered an extremely unequal treatment compared to others, the harassment I received was done through different ways, as verbal abuse, indifference, isolation from others, over charging me with requests that didn’t respond business objectives, throwing of documents on my desk. All that was initiated from one superior member, constructing the figure of underperforming until dismissal, also treated in a detrimental way from HR who never was interested in investigating my complaints of bad treatment.


Between all that the people that did not hear any of my complaints justified the attitude of the person harassing me as because its superiority national origins, meaning that because I a m also non-european she was right to treat in the way she was doing because she was looking for efficiency.


after 5 weeks of the dismissal, I had another very interested employer that would take me on board, it was only pending the reference. After this they didn’t contacted me anymore. then I investigated about the employment law.



I still suffer from the anxiety attacks, became very nervous and it’s something I cannot control.



how can I get evidence and at what stage. There were witnesses in some of the bad treatment and also, procedures were just done to me. Also the reports they did of every meeting and my responses proving the thru. How can an employee help me as a witness without the employer taking against him?


How can I get that information from my employer because the emails will prove it a lot of the different treatment, also the monitoring of number of calls and durations of calls to customer and personal calls, I mean all that data that is about me and the data emails corrpesnde from the people I suffered all the bad treatment.



I would really appreciate any advice. I was working less than 1 year. Thanks in advance.

marybelle01

Oh God - you have made a claim to a tribunal and you have no evidence? You don't really think that current employees, who haven't even agreed to be witnesses, are going to back you up? Or that the e-mails you say prove this still exist? You will be able to ask the employer for documents, but without copies of them already then you have no way of proving that they have given you everything, or that they are the original documents.

KiKi

Whilst said rather more strongly than I would put it, Marybelle is right. You have to have evidence to take to the ET, and getting it after the event (submitting the ET1) is probably too late. If you have no way of accessing the emails, any evidence, or what you need from your employer, then you have very little chance of getting it now.

You cannot make your ex-colleagues witnesses unless they choose to be, and the sorry fact is that whilst people may have been on your side, taking a stand against their employer is far less likely. And you cannot stop the employer then taking against them. If someone was to help you, they would probably choose to do it secretly, but if you have evidence and the employer gets suspicious, they may investigate who got hold of emails and information etc - the point is that it's risky for anyone to help you.

Sorry, OP, but unless you can get hold of this evidence (and it seems unlikely) then you will stand no chance at ET. And I really don't see how you get the evidence without asking someone to get it for you; the sad reality is that probably no-one will. You can ask, but that's it.

KiKi

Mashita

Thanks for your comments,

But then what evidence can I give. I have a few emails related to reports I answered complaining about the bad unequal treatment. none of my reports were answered anyway.
on the other hand, as far as I know, I can request the data they have in regards about me and this should include the reports they wrote of my performance and my responses to it and the monitoring they have done without telling me.

I also read somewhere that I could request the emails information in the company and by that they should provide.

How can I have evidence if the harassment and bullying was mainly when none was around. and that records shows that they treated me different to others.

the same letter of dismissal they sent to me, they said that they didn't feel I was at the standars of the company. and never could show real proof of underperforming.

Well, I have to try all I can now. I just don't know how then can I be protected if there is not evidence of what they have done to me, but at the same time, how can they have evidence of my underperformance.

KiKi wrote: »

Whilst said rather more strongly than I would put it, Marybelle is right. You have to have evidence to take to the ET, and getting it after the event (submitting the ET1) is probably too late. If you have no way of accessing the emails, any evidence, or what you need from your employer, then you have very little chance of getting it now.

You cannot make your ex-colleagues witnesses unless they choose to be, and the sorry fact is that whilst people may have been on your side, taking a stand against their employer is far less likely. And you cannot stop the employer then taking against them. If someone was to help you, they would probably choose to do it secretly, but if you have evidence and the employer gets suspicious, they may investigate who got hold of emails and information etc - the point is that it's risky for anyone to help you.

Sorry, OP, but unless you can get hold of this evidence (and it seems unlikely) then you will stand no chance at ET. And I really don't see how you get the evidence without asking someone to get it for you; the sad reality is that probably no-one will. You can ask, but that's it.

KiKi

KiKi

Mashita wrote: »

But then what evidence can I give.

You give evidence that exists, whether it's emails, witness statements, written documents etc. But if you don't have that evidence then you don't have it. I don't know what else to say. You have to prove you were discriminated against...that's why you need evidence to go to ET.

I have a few emails related to reports I answered complaining about the bad unequal treatment. none of my reports were answered anyway.
on the other hand, as far as I know, I can request the data they have in regards about me and this should include the reports they wrote of my performance and my responses to it and the monitoring they have done without telling me.

I think you can request information which is held on you with regards to your personnel file, but I'm not sure exactly what that comprises - I doubt it includes emails where you're mentioned, or monitoring. They could have just deleted / got rid of stuff and you'd have no evidence it ever existed anyway.

How can I have evidence if the harassment and bullying was mainly when none was around.

You can't - which is why you wouldn't win without it. Proving discrimination is very very difficult unless the company are very stupid and provide you with clear, unambiguous evidence.

and that records shows that they treated me different to others.

What records? You may have been treated differently for reasons that the company could attribute to something else (eg, poor performance). I'm not saying you've performed poorly, but if they monitored you and no-one else, they will simply argue that it was because your performance was poor. Unless you have actual evidence it was on the basis of your race, then you are very unlikely to win.

ETs are very, very stressful, and as you say you suffer from anxiety badly, I think you need to consider - very strongly - whether or not you should just let this go, or get a solicitor to represent you properly. You can't just tell the ET how they made you feel, or what you *think* they did. You need evidence that they did it, and that their actions were because of your race. Don't underestimate how very difficult that is to prove.

the same letter of dismissal they sent to me, they said that they didn't feel I was at the standars of the company. and never could show real proof of underperforming.

Which plays to my point above. They'll simply argue they didn't think you were performing. Please consider my point about stress above, if you suffer from real anxiety.

If they are the bullies you say they are, then you're better off out of there, put it behind you, move on and get a job where your skills will be valued.

KiKi

marybelle01

Mashita wrote: »

Thanks for your comments,

But then what evidence can I give. This isn't their problem - you are supposed to have evidence of what you claim. You might get some information from them - but not enough to prove your case. I have a few emails related to reports I answered complaining about the bad unequal treatment. none of my reports were answered anyway.
on the other hand, as far as I know,

I can request the data they have in regards about me and this should include the reports they wrote of my performance and my responses to it and the monitoring they have done without telling me. And if you do they will all show that your performance was poor. Trust me. It doesn't matter what your performance was - this is what they will all say.

I also read somewhere that I could request the emails information in the company and by that they should provide. You can make a Subject Access Request - which they can charge you £10 for. But you still have no proof that they have provided everything - and there are also things they don't have to provide anyway. That is, of course, providing that all e-mails were not deleted when you left their employment. Amazing how often that happens.

How can I have evidence if the harassment and bullying was mainly when none was around. and that records shows that they treated me different to others. If it happened when nobody was around then you have no witnesses. It's your word against theirs - and you are the one who has to prove it, not them.

the same letter of dismissal they sent to me, they said that they didn't feel I was at the standars of the company. and never could show real proof of underperforming. You said you had meetings about this - they have proof!

Well, I have to try all I can now. I just don't know how then can I be protected if there is not evidence of what they have done to me, but at the same time, how can they have evidence of my underperformance.

They do not have to prove that you underperformed - this is not unfair dismissal because you didn't work there long enough to claim it. You do have to prove discrimination. That's the simple fact. And not having any evidence of it then you aren't going to go anywhere with a claim.

Mashita

I really appreciate your comments. I try all I can as I am already in this process.
in fact this is helping me to feel better and learn more and to not just give up, even if at the end I can not prove it completely, I will have to tell what they have done to me and because it is also affecting my future possibilities of finding another Job.
many thanks again

KiKi wrote: »

You give evidence that exists, whether it's emails, witness statements, written documents etc. But if you don't have that evidence then you don't have it. I don't know what else to say. You have to prove you were discriminated against...that's why you need evidence to go to ET.



I think you can request information which is held on you with regards to your personnel file, but I'm not sure exactly what that comprises - I doubt it includes emails where you're mentioned, or monitoring. They could have just deleted / got rid of stuff and you'd have no evidence it ever existed anyway.




You can't - which is why you wouldn't win without it. Proving discrimination is very very difficult unless the company are very stupid and provide you with clear, unambiguous evidence.




What records? You may have been treated differently for reasons that the company could attribute to something else (eg, poor performance). I'm not saying you've performed poorly, but if they monitored you and no-one else, they will simply argue that it was because your performance was poor. Unless you have actual evidence it was on the basis of your race, then you are very unlikely to win.

ETs are very, very stressful, and as you say you suffer from anxiety badly, I think you need to consider - very strongly - whether or not you should just let this go, or get a solicitor to represent you properly. You can't just tell the ET how they made you feel, or what you *think* they did. You need evidence that they did it, and that their actions were because of your race. Don't underestimate how very difficult that is to prove.




Which plays to my point above. They'll simply argue they didn't think you were performing. Please consider my point about stress above, if you suffer from real anxiety.

If they are the bullies you say they are, then you're better off out of there, put it behind you, move on and get a job where your skills will be valued.

KiKi

Mashita

I understand and at the same time it's difficult to accept that people that are discriminated and left with consequences they cannot do anything, because not all is overt discrimination.

marybelle01 wrote: »

They do not have to prove that you underperformed - this is not unfair dismissal because you didn't work there long enough to claim it. You do have to prove discrimination. That's the simple fact. And not having any evidence of it then you aren't going to go anywhere with a claim.

KiKi

It is tough, yes - it's very tough. It's you vs them. If someone bullies you in private because of your race, and you can't prove it, then no court will back you.

A lot of discrimination is 'hidden' and subtle, and will never be enough for a court. You should never have to suffer that way, but the onus is on you to prove it, which is why many people sadly have to move on and decide not to fight for something they know they will lose.

All the best with it, though.

KiKi

marybelle01

Difficult as it may be to accept, without evidence it is going to get an awful lot harder. I've never been to a tribunal but I have read a lot about them here and elsewhere. And if you think you've been bullied so far then you have no idea what a bunch of lawyers are going to do to you. People are telling you this for your own good.

And as for your future job possibilities, have you given a shred of thought to what a tribunal claim that you cannot prove is going to do to them? Do you honestly think that employers don't talk to each other? It's much easier to explain getting dismissed for performance - the job didn't suit you, you felt you lacked support or training or whatever - than it is to explain that you claimed discrimination and had no evidence to prove it. Employers are edgy about people who go to tribunals, and particularly for discrimination. These are the sorts of things you have to think about. And buying a book is not going to make up for a lack of evidence.

If you had evidence then I'd be the first to say to go for it. But you haven't and you are depending on obtaining that evidence from your former employer, which just isn't going to happen. Why would they give it to you? Why would they be that stupid? You are heading for a whole load of pain for nothing.

mynameistallulah

As others have said, you are not going to win a Tribunal claim without evidence. With that in mind, what do you aim to achieve by continuing with the process?