Access to Deed - FirstActive said no

Land_Registry

[quote=[Deleted User];54755177]I've actually found the documents I need at home now. I've got a plan which is what I wanted.

I'm trying to find out who owns the fences on either side of my property but there's nothing marked on the plans I have.

Is there anyway of determining? If there is nothing specific in the plans - can I assume anything?[/QUOTE]

I shall try to cover the main issue re the boundaries and then touch on the 'deeds' aspect at the end. Apologies for the length of the post but the subject can be a complex one.

I would recommend that you read Public Guide 19 Title plans and boundaries which provides basic guidance on the purpose of title plans (the one you obtained for £4 online) and what information Land Registry may be able to provide. It also deals with some common boundary questions and problems.

Our FAQ on boundaries will also be useful

There are a number of misconceptions re boundary ownership/responsibility such as 'the left/right is always yours'. The guide explains that a register may contain information about who owns the boundaries or who is responsible for their maintenance. However, this information will only be available if the deeds sent to Land Registry at the time of registration mention this - most do not.

There is no hard rule as to when such information will exist. Much will depend on whether the property once formed part of a larger area of land owned by a single owner who then developed/sold off various parts and also indicated who was responsible for what e.g. such information is fairly common on 'developments' where a singe developer is involved and multiple plots/properties have been built/sold - this was just as true in Victorian times as it is now.

If your own property/title does not reveal anything then your neighbour's might. BUT as mentioned there is no hard rule on this.

Deeds and Lender - as the other posters state the land register is held in an electronic format by Land Registry. However original deeds may well still exist for example with the owner, their lender or solicitor. Over 75% of the land/property in England & Wales (E&W) is now registered and with over 23 million titles the vast majority of traditional residential properties are included in that figure.

As antrobus correctly points out compulsory registration was phased in across much of E&W between the 1960's and 90s and as the vast majority of residential properties will have been sold during that time and the present day, their registration would have been triggered and then updated on each subsequent sale etc.

The 'original deeds' would have been used to register the property for the first time but would not normally have been submitted again on each subsequent sale. As a result many lenders do not actually hold the original deeds BUT only they will be able to advise you on this. In some cases those deeds are handed over on each sale/mortgage BUT, like boundaries, there is no hard and fast rule on this.

In the past the mortgage lender would have held the deeds as 'security' . This would have included the Land Registry deed (Charge Certificate) as well but these were phased out a number of years ago and in most cases and no longer exist. The deeds they hold are unlikely to have the same 'security value' as perhaps they once did but obtaining a copy of them is usually an administrative issue as others have suggested.

Our FAQs About Land Registry and in particular the one entitled Where are my deeds kept will be of interest but ultimately it is a matter you would need to pursue with your lender if you still wish to do so.

[Deleted User]

antrobus wrote: »

If there's nothing marked on the deeds or title documents then I think the presumption is that it's your fence if the posts are on your side.

Nope no markings. Its a panel fence so no posts on one side or the other - just posts with the panels in between.

[Deleted User]

Land_Registry_representative wrote: »

I shall try to cover the main issue re the boundaries and then touch on the 'deeds' aspect at the end. Apologies for the length of the post but the subject can be a complex one.

I would recommend that you read Public Guide 19 Title plans and boundaries which provides basic guidance on the purpose of title plans (the one you obtained for £4 online) and what information Land Registry may be able to provide. It also deals with some common boundary questions and problems.

Our FAQ on boundaries will also be useful

There are a number of misconceptions re boundary ownership/responsibility such as 'the left/right is always yours'. The guide explains that a register may contain information about who owns the boundaries or who is responsible for their maintenance. However, this information will only be available if the deeds sent to Land Registry at the time of registration mention this - most do not.

There is no hard rule as to when such information will exist. Much will depend on whether the property once formed part of a larger area of land owned by a single owner who then developed/sold off various parts and also indicated who was responsible for what e.g. such information is fairly common on 'developments' where a singe developer is involved and multiple plots/properties have been built/sold - this was just as true in Victorian times as it is now.

If your own property/title does not reveal anything then your neighbour's might. BUT as mentioned there is no hard rule on this.

Deeds and Lender - as the other posters state the land register is held in an electronic format by Land Registry. However original deeds may well still exist for example with the owner, their lender or solicitor. Over 75% of the land/property in England & Wales (E&W) is now registered and with over 23 million titles the vast majority of traditional residential properties are included in that figure.

As antrobus correctly points out compulsory registration was phased in across much of E&W between the 1960's and 90s and as the vast majority of residential properties will have been sold during that time and the present day, their registration would have been triggered and then updated on each subsequent sale etc.

The 'original deeds' would have been used to register the property for the first time but would not normally have been submitted again on each subsequent sale. As a result many lenders do not actually hold the original deeds BUT only they will be able to advise you on this. In some cases those deeds are handed over on each sale/mortgage BUT, like boundaries, there is no hard and fast rule on this.

In the past the mortgage lender would have held the deeds as 'security' . This would have included the Land Registry deed (Charge Certificate) as well but these were phased out a number of years ago and in most cases and no longer exist. The deeds they hold are unlikely to have the same 'security value' as perhaps they once did but obtaining a copy of them is usually an administrative issue as others have suggested.

Our FAQs About Land Registry and in particular the one entitled Where are my deeds kept will be of interest but ultimately it is a matter you would need to pursue with your lender if you still wish to do so.

Wow. How great is this - land registry officially replying to a post. Well done land registry dude.

Must admit I didnt realise boundaries were that complicated. I thought it was a straightforward thing - on the plan that was it. didnt realise they weren't exact.

Anyway, have now found all the stuff for the original house purchase (it was newly built in 2000). And it looks like I have an outline plan with it.

No T marks on the plan and, as I said, its a panel fence with no posts on one side. However, reading the documents (which are quite complex) I think its saying the ownership is 'party' which I guess means we're both responsible for it?

Probably good because I want to attach a willow divider thing to my side of the fence and there would be issued if neighbour owned the fence (since hes really awkward). I guess since ownership is 'party' I'm free to do so? (Its not going to damage said fence anyway but it will be nailed/staples to it).

[Deleted User]

Also, is it safe to assume a boundary as inferred by a plan?

Plan seems to indicate that the plot is a rectangle. Fence seems to imply the boundary which runs down the between the two houses - but the front gardens are open plan. However, plan seems to indicate that boundary runs on straight imaginary line past the end of the fence.

I was always planning to extend my driveway onto this extra bit (its grass at the moment) but you can guarantee if I've got this wrong neighbour will kick off.

I dont intend to speak to him because of his past actions but do I need to advise him in writing before I do anything? Or can I safely assume the boundary as best I can and do whatever I want within reason?

Land_Registry

I would expect the wording to be reasonably clear e.g. ' the fence shall be maintained as a party fence' or similar which normally means a shared responsibility as you suggest.

Open plan developments also often carry with them certain restrictions (usually as covenants) which limit what you can do at the front of the property/plot. The Transfer from the original developer to the first owner would normally contain such information.

As you appreciate boundary issues can be complex and it is important to recognise that social and historical values continue to impact on the way we all view boundaries and our properties. Phrases such as my 'home is my castle' have shaped the approaches of property owners for years when decisions re boundaries and property were settled in a more direct fashion - nowadays discussion, agreement and compromise should always be considered first but I appreciate that so many other factors can come into play, some of which are unrelated to the actual fence/boundary issue itself.

The title plan (or indeed any plan) is simply a representation of the actual boundary on a plan. The title plan will show the general boundaries of a registered title - take a look at our other FAQs and online guides which explain what information plans can provide. The physical boundaries on the ground often give a fairer representation of where a boundary lies as you can actually see them in situ.

Open plan properties can be difficult as there is often no clearly defined boundary line as they may be laid to grass or have a shared drive - once again understanding/appreciating both this and any covenants which may exist, and finding agreement and compromise with your neighbour is often the best way to go.

I cannot pass comment regarding any actions you might be considering regarding the fence or drive etc as they are beyond my remit. However I would always recommend seeking independent legal advice if you are unsure of your actual rights.

However it is always important to bear in mind that your view (or that of any legal adviser) may differ from that of your neighbour or anyone else. That is why discussion, agreement and compromise are often the best option, especially from a money-saving perspective.