Permitted development and the Party Wall Act

patricia1066

We share a fence with our neighbour. When we applied for planning for a side extension not up to the boundary, we issued a Notice and she appointed a surveyor, who decided that the wrong notice was issued by our representative. It required a Adjoining Property Notice, duly issued by my new representative. I was told I would pay four sets of costs for this.
Since then the measures I have had presented amount to over £12k. Some are very reasonable; one is imposing a cost of £8k to protect against a (very small) risk that a drain be damaged. Total cost to reinstate new about £300 - 500.
There was no response to my formal complaint about the unreasonable demand, but I was told verbally by my surveyor that if I disagreed with their joint professional judgement that I would be taken to independent arbitration.
I want to withdraw the Notice and pay off the surveyors.

If I later take up permitted development rights, will I have to issue a Notice?

iamcornholio

Yes pay them off and cut your losses

Then start your "new scheme" which will not invoke the PWA. Do this by keeping your extension in from the boundary (10mm will do) and assume that your foundations wont be deeper than the neighbours foundations

I find it hard to visualise how you can incur £12k of special measures for work consisting of a side extension

This is why the PWA should be avoided at all costs - two good reasons to use it are if you need access to neighbours land, or if you have difficult neighbours

With regards to permitted development , the two are separate and you only 'should' serve a PW notice if the work comes under the PWA

patricia1066

I suspect that my neighbour would prefer if I dont build. Evidence - her objections to planning that were rejected; her immediate action on getting the notice was to appoint.

It was clear that the extension is not on the boundary, but that as we may need to dig deeper than 1m it was sensible to issue the Notice. I will need access to her land to render the wall.

As things have turned out the building inspector is privately appalled at the way the Act is being applied - it is new to him, though perhaps I wont be the last.

he doesnt know how deep my neighbour's foundation is.

I will take a soil test before taking any further costs re designing a new extension. That should confirm if the foundations need to be deeper than 1m.

The measure that costs 20% of the build is a hit and miss shuttering for a 6m long concrete foundation. The other costs are all the reports commissioned at the outset, and the new arris fence and measures to protect my neighbour from dust.

teneighty

So the basis of the award is a 3 metre notice and they have not arranged a trial pit to establish the depth of the adjoining owners foundation? Unbelievable!

Sounds to me like more rogue surveyors who are just cashing in on the party wall act but do not have a clue what they are doing.

The fact that your neighbour has been against the extension from the outset suggests that they will try to hold you to ransom over this. I cannot see how the protection measures you mentioned in your second post are so expensive but it may be more cost effective to have a shallow raft foundation designed so that it takes the work out from the Act.

patricia1066

Is that a pit that can see the depth of her foundation? If so that has never been proposed.

These are qualified RICS surveyors, both very experienced, so I cant see how I would win an arbitration award. Probably end up with increased fees and more reports, and delayed start to the works.

If there is a silver lining it is that I have met some great problem-solving builders before I commit, so that is a good thing.

patricia1066

If I build with block overhand without access to my neighbour, can I later issue a Notice to secure access? At that point the foundations will be dug, and the staged foundation cannot be resurrected.

teneighty

The notice has got nothing to do with access to your neighbour's land. If you choose to proceed without the benefit of the award you cannot then suddenly decide you want to use it later just because it suits you for access. The neighbour could refuse to grant you access and there is nothing your could do about it.

However, given the background regarding the neighbours objection I suspect they will be straight on the phone to their surveyor as soon as they see any sign of building work commencing.

A few questions which may help:
1. Is it a 3 metre notice job?
2. Roughly how old are the properties?
3. Are both properties of the same age and style?
4. Would it be possible to dig a trial pit to expose the foundation depth on your house. If both houses are the same it is reasonable to assume foundation depths will be the same.
5. Why do they want shuttering for the foundation excavations? Are they very deep foundations or are there unusual ground conditions or is the adjoining property at a higher level?

By the way a dispute does not go to arbitration, it goes to an agreed third surveyor so you end up paying three lots of fees.....not a route I would recommend unless your surveyor was very confident that you would win. And finally just because they are RICS surveyors does not mean they are qualified to be party wall surveyors, they may be general practice surveyors (estate agents) or quantity surveyors or valuers and auctioneers. Only chartered building surveyors are trained in party wall matters as part of their qualification and even some of them are pretty useless.

joinaman

Can you not adjust the foundations/facias,etc, so they do not overhang your neighbours?
Then build external wall overhand, and render in sections about 1m high as you go. When wall completed, use roller and long pole to paint from your roof
This is what I had to do a few years ago when I had a very awkward neighbour, he was not happy but there was nothing he could do to stop it,
The only person going to look at your not so good wall is your neighbour, not you, as long as it is sound and watertight is should be ok
Also can you not do a test dig to check out your existing footings, would make life a lot easier if you knew the exact depth you will need.

patricia1066

Teneighty your help is really apprecialed.

teneighty wrote: »

The notice has got nothing to do with access to your neighbour's land. If you choose to proceed without the benefit of the award you cannot then suddenly decide you want to use it later just because it suits you for access. The neighbour could refuse to grant you access and there is nothing your could do about it.

However, given the background regarding the neighbours objection I suspect they will be straight on the phone to their surveyor as soon as they see any sign of building work commencing.

Yes they will!

A few questions which may help:
1. Is it a 3 metre notice job? Yes
2. Roughly how old are the properties? Mine is 1860, which a property speculator couldnt demolish, so built up very close around. There is about 2m gap between their walls and the boundary, while on our side after the build there will be 800mm.
3. Are both properties of the same age and style? Theirs was built in late 80s I think
4. Would it be possible to dig a trial pit to expose the foundation depth on your house. If both houses are the same it is reasonable to assume foundation depths will be the same. I asked my surveyor if he could arrange this and he said that wont be possible.
5. Why do they want shuttering for the foundation excavations? Are they very deep foundations or are there unusual ground conditions or is the adjoining property at a higher level? No explanations given by my surveyor who shuttles between the other side and me. Both surveyors believe that there will be soil movement, and unless there s an 8 part shuttering system to prevent this there is risk of damage to the pipe. You may imagine what I think of this as an explanation.

By the way a dispute does not go to arbitration, it goes to an agreed third surveyor so you end up paying three lots of fees.....not a route I would recommend unless your surveyor was very confident that you would win. And finally just because they are RICS surveyors does not mean they are qualified to be party wall surveyors, they may be general practice surveyors (estate agents) or quantity surveyors or valuers and auctioneers. Only chartered building surveyors are trained in party wall matters as part of their qualification and even some of them are pretty useless. Our contract states that in the event there is no agreement that it will go to arbitration, and my guy has told m I have to agree his method or it will go to arbitration. We are speaking about the same thing though.

I need an answer to the questions I have put to the opposing side. But if this was a medical opinion sought it would be like trying to find someone to oppose the Surgeon General's opinion. My neighbour is very well briefed.

teneighty

When you say next door was built in the late 80's I assume you mean 1980's not 1880's.

If that is the case you can be pretty sure that their foundations go down to the same depth as your extension foundation and therefore the party wall act will not apply. The award will be null and void. Any decent surveyor would have told you that from the outset.

If I were you I would insist that a trial pit is dug next door and if the foundations are shown to be to the required depth I would be pursuing a professional negligence claim against both surveyors. Even if the neighbour refuses to allow a trial pit to be dug it would be reasonable to assume the foundation depth of a 1980's house will be to current standards. These 3 metre notices normally only apply if you are building an extension adjacent to a much older property.

I wish you good luck and if you need any more help I'm sure there are reputable surveyors out there who would be happy to help and put these incompetent rogues out of business.

patricia1066

But as I need access the award is not void. The two reasons cornholio mentioned earlier, a poor neighbour relationship and need for access, were our reasons for taking the Notice route after the first Notice was withdrawn. The neighbour's wall is not at risk by our foundation; perhaps the risk to the drain is an irrelevance and this is a possible ground for a negligence claim.

Yes it is 1980 in which it was built we believe