cash in hand payments - morally wrong?

daveyjp

Dodgy ground as we don't have the rule of morals, we have the rule of law. Swapping homes to avoid CGT is morally wrong, but MPs do it all the time.

Jennifer_Jane

Just to remember that the question was not about paying cash per se, but about choosing to pay cash rather than by other means in order to receive a discount and where it is implicit that it's a tax dodge.

As always (and the Minister should have realised this), it's become a question of paying cash or not paying cash.

I'm not complicit in tax-dodging if I pay cash, and when you think of what could have been claimed against tax, eg vehicle costs, advertising, parts, uniform, perhaps etc, then paying cash to a small trader is probably peanuts.

I despair of the media-savvyness of the Coalition. Compare this with nu-Labour who controlled things with more panache (albeit whilst spending our way into debt).

antrobus

daveyjp wrote: »

Dodgy ground as we don't have the rule of morals, we have the rule of law. Swapping homes to avoid CGT is morally wrong, but MPs do it all the time.

But, not declaring cash receipts as income for tax purposes is against the law, whilst nominating a property as your PPR is perfectly legal.

antrobus

Jennifer_Jane wrote: »

...I'm not complicit in tax-dodging if I pay cash, and when you think of what could have been claimed against tax, eg vehicle costs, advertising, parts, uniform, perhaps etc, then paying cash to a small trader is probably peanuts. ....

Estimates of the size of the informal or black economy in the UK vary, for obvious reasons - somewhere between 5% and 15% apparently, depending on who you believe. But is sure is a lot more than 'peanuts'. Unless they're gold plated, diamond encrusted peanuts.

tyllwyd

If it is morally wrong to pay cash for goods/service because you think the person receiving it might be dodging tax, what happens if I go to a store and buy a DVD featuring a well-known comedian which is on special offer ... if I think he might be avoiding tax, should I insist on paying the full amount by card, or is it OK for me to pay the special offer price by cash?

daveyjp

antrobus wrote: »

But, not declaring cash receipts as income for tax purposes is against the law, whilst nominating a property as your PPR is perfectly legal.[/

Legality does not sit easily with morality when it comes to paying tax, especially when the Minister went on to say if you don't pay your share someone has to pay more. That is the moral argument and has nothing to do with what tax avoidnace is or isn't legal.

If you have tax based on morality all tax avoidance disappears as by avoiding it someone is paying more and that isn't moral.

antrobus

tyllwyd wrote: »

If it is morally wrong to pay cash for goods/service because you think the person receiving it might be dodging tax, what happens if I go to a store and buy a DVD featuring a well-known comedian which is on special offer ... if I think he might be avoiding tax, should I insist on paying the full amount by card, or is it OK for me to pay the special offer price by cash?

'Dodging tax' is a criminal offence, 'avoiding tax' isn't. Therefore one could argue that it was 'morally wrong' to be complicit in the commission of a criminal act, whilst the same ethical condemnation would not apply to someone who had some connection to a perfectly legal arrangement that is simply disapproved of by some people.

antrobus

daveyjp wrote: »

Legality does not sit easily with morality when it comes to paying tax, especially when the Minister went on to say if you don't pay your share someone has to pay more. That is the moral argument and has nothing to do with what tax avoidnace is or isn't legal.

Especially since the minister wasn't addressing the issue of tax avoidance, but rather the issue of tax evasion. It's an important distinction, and it's worthwhile making the effort to understand the difference.

daveyjp wrote: »

If you have tax based on morality all tax avoidance disappears as by avoiding it someone is paying more and that isn't moral.

I fail to see how it would ever be possible to have a 'tax based on morality' so I can't see the relevance.

FTBFun

kabayiri wrote: »

Yes you can if you have a trader who works under the VAT threshold, and another larger outfit which does not.

There are garage mechanics around here who ask you to supply the parts for your car service in an attempt to keep their income stream below the threshold.

I think this threshold creates an unlevel playing field personally, but 'thems the rules'.

[edit: this probably doesn't happen in London where plumbers can charge £150 per hour]

Well there is that - I was commentating on the particular service being provided as essential works.

daveyjp

antrobus wrote: »

I fail to see how it would ever be possible to have a 'tax based on morality' so I can't see the relevance.

Better tell the Minister that then. He seems to think morality in tax affairs is very relevant.