Wiggo

purch

Kennyboy66 wrote: »

Nothing would surprise me about pro-cycling, but everything about the 2012 tour looked cleaner than any other tour since probably the mid 1980's.

Probably that was why it was the most boring TdF that I have ever watched.

If it wasn't for Wiggins/Froome/Cav I would have switched off after the prologue :eek:

wotsthat

The USADA released a summary of their evidence last night. Not read the full document but a quick skim shows why Armstrong attacked the process rather than the evidence.

The body of evidence against him looks to be huge. The UCI will be delighted - I think they were dreading being put in a position where they had to appeal and having to air some of their own dirty washing.

I wonder what the difference in Armstrong's net worth is as a result of doping and whether he thinks it was worth it.

Even after all the revelations about drug taking and his, sometimes, unpleasant personality I still admire him greatly.

As to what happens with his TDF wins I propose that anyone that has ever cycled up Alpe d'huez goes into a lottery and winners chosen at random.

http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/story/_/id/8486013/11-teammates-testified-case-lance-armstrong-usada-says

purch

wotsthat wrote: »

Even after all the revelations about drug taking and his, sometimes, unpleasant personality I still admire him greatly.

Yes. It would be sad/tragic if the great work his charity undertakes is hurt by this.

The truth is, nobody can say for certain whether or not he would have won 1,2,3 or all 7 TdF without taking banned stuff.

wotsthat wrote: »

what happens with his TDF wins

Difficult, Ullrich and Zulle have confessed to drug taking but only in the years before the Armstrong era, and would under current rules have been eligible to race so they have a claim even if they are sullied, Joseba Beloki was only implicated I think, and never found guilty nor 'fessed up so maybe he could get a few, Basso and Vino have served suspensions but not necessarily for offences when they were on the podium, so maybe they have a claim.

Maybe they should just forget that the TdF was ever staged from about 1995 to 2005 :eek:

P.S. My memory of Lance Armstrong in the Tour was that he was never afraid to wear yellow, often taking the jersey early on in the race and holding on to it against all comers. That means he would have been tested every day, not just randomly during the race, so the Q has to be, "why were all these tests negative ?"

Generali

purch wrote: »

P.S. My memory of Lance Armstrong in the Tour was that he was never afraid to wear yellow, often taking the jersey early on in the race and holding on to it against all comers. That means he would have been tested every day, not just randomly during the race, so the Q has to be, "why were all these tests negative ?"

If you read the document it explains why.

EPO, for almost all of Armstrong's career could only be tested for via hematocrit levels. Even later on, it was possible to spoof the test by sleeping in a tent that delivered lower levels of oxygen to you while you slept as the EPO test compares the relative levels of 2 different forms of EPO in the body and you can boost the non-injected sort by doing so. Also, Dr Ferrari worked out that by injecting intravenously rather than subcutaneously, the EPO could only be detected directly for about 12 hours. Also, from what I can tell, EPO was being used to mask blood doping more than anything else.

Testosterone is a naturally occurring hormone so if you use it sparingly then you can't pick it up in a test. They were using patches overnight delivering slow and measured doses.

Cortisone, which Armstrong tested positive for, is used medicinally and you are allowed to use it if you can demonstrate medical need. The claim is that when Armstrong tested positive, a back-dated prescription was issued to cover it.

The document states how angry the team boss was when he found out riders were doping away from the team as that was seen as more risky than using team facilities to dope. Certainly, mates of mine in cycling reckon that riders getting caught for doping are unprofessional rather than cheats.

purch

Generali wrote: »

If you read the document it explains why.

I have the attention span of a Gnat.

I'll let you explain.........whatever it was we were talking about :eek:

Kennyboy66

purch wrote: »

Yes. It would be sad/tragic if the great work his charity undertakes is hurt by this.

The truth is, nobody can say for certain whether or not he would have won 1,2,3 or all 7 TdF without taking banned stuff.



Difficult, Ullrich and Zulle have confessed to drug taking but only in the years before the Armstrong era, and would under current rules have been eligible to race so they have a claim even if they are sullied, Joseba Beloki was only implicated I think, and never found guilty nor 'fessed up so maybe he could get a few, Basso and Vino have served suspensions but not necessarily for offences when they were on the podium, so maybe they have a claim.

Maybe they should just forget that the TdF was ever staged from about 1995 to 2005 :eek:

P.S. My memory of Lance Armstrong in the Tour was that he was never afraid to wear yellow, often taking the jersey early on in the race and holding on to it against all comers. That means he would have been tested every day, not just randomly during the race, so the Q has to be, "why were all these tests negative ?"

1) I'd be fairly confident that if Armstrong was competing clean against a doped up Pantani, Ulrich. Rijs et al he wouldn't have won a single tour.
The advantage that EPO and similar gives is just too great.

2) You know that you will be tested in the Tour / the Olympics whatever. That is why they now do out of competition testing.
The was almost no out of competition testing while he was winning Le Tour - he also competed in very few other events, so maximising his time he could dope and train.

Besides - he did actually fail 2 tests, there is also the alleged failed test and cover up by the UCI for EPO.
Marion Jones never tested positive, neither did Flo. Joyner - neither for that matter did many East German athletes.

3) The tests for both EPO at the time (Hemocratit level at 50% - the norm is 38 - 44%) and testosterone (using the testosterone / epitestosterone ratio of 6:1 - when the norm is 1:1) gives a huge margin to boost your levels to the max of the range and know you will not be caught.

a great article by Malcolm Gladwell from 2001

http://www.gladwell.com/2001/2001_08_10_a_drug.htm

and a great graphic that shows the maximum number of tests that Armstrong had

http://dimspace.co.uk/lancetesthistory.png

(ignore his claims of 500 tests - it is palpably a huge exaggeration)


Having said all this, I am not naive enough to believe there has never been a substantial drug problem in professional cycling including the greatest names from the past (Anquetil, Coppi etc, etc).

It's not the drug taking I loathe - its hardly a surprise, but the constant lying, bullying, perjury and intimidation.

The treatment of Christophe Bassons and Felipe Simeoni is utterly shameful - and the journalists and TV reporters who connived in all this (and sadly its the vast majority bar Paul Kimmage and David Walsh) should hang their heads in embarrassment.

I am also absolutely baffled why some people still give him the benefit of the doubt, or offer his 'charity' work up as mitigation.

purch

Tour de France director Christian Prudhomme says there should be "no winner" of the seven titles Lance Armstrong won if the decision to strip him of his victories is upheld.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19927300


Sad, but probably would be the correct decision.

Kennyboy66

Generali wrote: »

Running sprinters are routinely doping IMO; if they weren't how could they be running faster than the East Germans in the 1980s?

Just re-reading this thread.

East German sucess was based on giving women (and girls) huge amounts of testosterone and other steroids. It was their women wining the sprint events from 100m - 800m, not the men.

And people aren't running as fast as them even now.

200m 1979 Marita Koch (GDR) 21.71

4 people have run faster. One is dead (Flo - Jo) and one is in prison (Marion Jones).

400m 1985 Marita Koch (GDR) 47.60

Still the world record, people dont tend to get within a second.

Astonishingly no one has run within 2.5 seconds of this time since 2010


800m 1983 Jarmila Kratochvilova (Czech) 1:53:28

again, no one within 2.5 seconds since 2010

Still the world record, 1 athlete in the last 30 years has run within 1 second of this.

No-one has got within 5 seconds of Qu Yanxia's 1500m record in the last 8 years.


The womens throwing records are even more set in stone.

There is not a single Shot Put throw in the top 75 of all time that dates after the fall of the Berlin Wall.

purch

Kennyboy66 wrote: »

800m 1983 Jarmila Kratochvilova (Czech) 1:53:28

Still the world record, 1 athlete in the last 30 years has run within 1 second of this.

That was a bloke........100% certain :eek:

Generali

Kennyboy66 wrote: »

2) You know that you will be tested in the Tour / the Olympics whatever. That is why they now do out of competition testing.
The was almost no out of competition testing while he was winning Le Tour - he also competed in very few other events, so maximising his time he could dope and train.

According to the USADA document there was only serious out of competition testing for one year that Lance competed being 2010. The judgement shows that for 4 periods during Q2 of 2010 Lance lied about where he would be in a way that USADA can prove. Given that intravenously injected EPO could only be tested for 12 hours afterwards the chances of a positive test are negligible at best!