Which storage heaters?

pertinky

I think you can read too many threads and go full circle back to complete confusion.

Basically we're buying an ex-LA 3 bedroom mid-terraced house with no mains gas. LPG is out (apart from running the hob) and oil is too expensive to install (first-time buyers). The property is currently on BG E7 with 4 storage heaters (3 down 1 up).

My plan is to get rid of the hot water tank and cold water cistern and replace with an un-vented system that runs of the low tariff to heat my water/run my other heavy appliances

The storage heaters look old; very old infact. Probably 30 years at least. I am looking to replace them downstairs (removing the one upstairs) putting a 2.5Kw or 3.4kW in the lounge for the lounger/dining room (sort of half-open plan) and a 2.5kW in the hallway (to convect upstairs).

I'm getting confused over which is best suited to this: straight up storage heaters ala Creda sensor plus that runs solely off the low tariff circuit, or a hybrid like the Eco Response. The main disadvantage of these seem to be that their nominal output is MUCH lower as they have direct heating alongside it. Also some are fan assisted which is more power consumption to circulate the air better around the room. Most are now thermostatic so I presume these open the flaps more/less based on the temperature within the room?

We're also planning (after this winter most likely) to install a wood burner in the property that should convect heat both into the lounge area as well as the hallway/upstairs - mainly for the winter months as we can source fuel cheap.

Upstairs we're going striaght out panel heaters. Nothing too expensive as long as it has electronic timers/thermostatic sensors on it to ensure it comes on before we get up and before we goto bed - 2 of the rooms will rarely be used so will be off most of the time. Electric blankets are the way forward (hopefully running on the low tariff!)

We're a fairly typical working couple.

I know theres been plenty of topics similar but most of these threads get derailed quite quickly

rogerblack

pertinky wrote: »

I think you can read too many threads and go full circle back to complete confusion.

Basically we're buying an ex-LA 3 bedroom mid-terraced house with no mains gas. LPG is out (apart from running the hob) and oil is too expensive to install (first-time buyers). The property is currently on BG E7 with 4 storage heaters (3 down 1 up).

Firstly, I'd say that before you do anything, you need to see how the existing heating system performs!!!

This can tell you how many watts you need to heat it, and how to design a new one.

It may be for example that the 30yo storage heaters work just fine, or could - with minor maintenance - replacing elements is simple and easy.

The answers you get will depend on your application.

For example - if you are both out from 8AM-6PM every weekday, then some storage heaters may have released a considerable portion of their heat over that period - even set to 'off' during the day.

Much of this heat is wasted.

But if what happens to couples quite often happens to you, and one needs to stay at home all day - suddenly the storage heaters become a much better solution, and the oil-filled radiators become a terrible idea.

Then there are alternative solutions - such as heat pumps.
Air source heatpumps (the good ones) are not cheap, but can provide heat at a comparable, or even cheaper rate than storage heaters. (though are less reliable).

In short - you need to actually measure how much heat it takes to keep the property at - say 10C over ambient one night.
Then at least double that for how much storage you want, perhaps a little more.

If you are willing to DIY, second hand storage heaters can be got inexpensively from ebay, and you can do many of the repairs on them yourself quite easily.
A coat of paint, and ...

The numbers also depend on your economy 7 tariff.
For some, the day rate is not that much worse than normal tariff.s In other places, it's nearly double!

pertinky

rogerblack wrote: »

Firstly, I'd say that before you do anything, you need to see how the existing heating system performs!!!

This can tell you how many watts you need to heat it, and how to design a new one.

It may be for example that the 30yo storage heaters work just fine, or could - with minor maintenance - replacing elements is simple and easy.

The answers you get will depend on your application.

For example - if you are both out from 8AM-6PM every weekday, then some storage heaters may have released a considerable portion of their heat over that period - even set to 'off' during the day.

Much of this heat is wasted.

But if what happens to couples quite often happens to you, and one needs to stay at home all day - suddenly the storage heaters become a much better solution, and the oil-filled radiators become a terrible idea.

Then there are alternative solutions - such as heat pumps.
Air source heatpumps (the good ones) are not cheap, but can provide heat at a comparable, or even cheaper rate than storage heaters. (though are less reliable).

In short - you need to actually measure how much heat it takes to keep the property at - say 10C over ambient one night.
Then at least double that for how much storage you want, perhaps a little more.

If you are willing to DIY, second hand storage heaters can be got inexpensively from ebay, and you can do many of the repairs on them yourself quite easily.
A coat of paint, and ...

The numbers also depend on your economy 7 tariff.
For some, the day rate is not that much worse than normal tariff.s In other places, it's nearly double!

The place needs gutting and rewiring before we move in so its a good time to make any changes to the electrical heating system professionally.

I've researched alternatives such as GSHP/ASHP and they are just out of my budget at the moment.

I do work from home occassionally - maybe 1 day every 2 weeks, and my partner is in retail so she typically works a Saturday and maybe a Sunday with 2 days off in the week. So that leans towards it being a useful solution in part as long as we can still get the flexibility of on-demand heat when we need it most.

I'm looking at moving to the SP online tariff. It's 5.1p night and 11.5p day (probably dearer for the first xKw on the day).

Richie-from-the-Boro

pertinky wrote: »

I think you can read too many threads and go full circle back to complete confusion.

~~~~ snip ~~~~

We're a fairly typical working couple.

I know theres been plenty of topics similar but most of these threads get derailed quite quickly

- the supplier, yes SP is as good or better than the other few
- the tariff E7 or the more expensive luxury end of E7 called E10 is a lifestyle choice
- the usual DD / paperless / online readings etc get the best tariff advantage
- 30 years or 50 years old - replacement is a cosmetic rather than efficiency choice
- bog standard creda / sunhouse / dimplex clay brick is always the cheapest but is also cost effective

If you are intending shuffling around your existing new for old storage the five things to remember are :

(1) Make sure you have enough storage - that is capacity to store cheap stuff to avoid having to switch on supplementary expensive fan heaters or whatever in a cold spell.

(2) Ditto cheap water storage - a big enough store of well insulated cheap hot water.

(3) You will always need an alternative quick heat such as convector / electric fire / whatever with night store systems.

(4) Treat the storage capacity as you would a bank account, you can have sufficient storage to always have enough cheap [5p] electric heat & water in store or - you acan have slightly undersized storage that means to constantly / frequently need to pay 3 times the price for the non-cheap stuff.

For example changing out a 2.5kWh for a 3.4kWh means you will always be able to 'bank' enough cheap stuff in the bad weather and avoid if not altogether at least the number of times you will need to switch on supplementary expensive heating.

(5) Assuming a normal sized lounge / living area always have a 3.4kWh rated storage, if its a massive living area I would have a second supplementary 0.8 or 1.4 somewhere in the room its cheaper in the long run.

pertinky

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

- the supplier, yes SP is as good or better than the other few
- the tariff E7 or the more expensive luxury end of E7 called E10 is a lifestyle choice
- the usual DD / paperless / online readings etc get the best tariff advantage
- 30 years or 50 years old - replacement is a cosmetic rather than efficiency choice
- bog standard creda / sunhouse / dimplex clay brick is always the cheapest but is also cost effective

If you are intending shuffling around your existing new for old storage the five things to remember are :

(1) Make sure you have enough storage - that is capacity to store cheap stuff to avoid having to switch on supplementary expensive fan heaters or whatever in a cold spell.

(2) Ditto cheap water storage - a big enough store of well insulated cheap hot water.

(3) You will always need an alternative quick heat such as convector / electric fire / whatever with night store systems.

(4) Treat the storage capacity as you would a bank account, you can have sufficient storage to always have enough cheap [5p] electric heat & water in store or - you acan have slightly undersized storage that means to constantly / frequently need to pay 3 times the price for the non-cheap stuff.

For example changing out a 2.5kWh for a 3.4kWh means you will always be able to 'bank' enough cheap stuff in the bad weather and avoid if not altogether at least the number of times you will need to switch on supplementary expensive heating.

(5) Assuming a normal sized lounge / living area always have a 3.4kWh rated storage, if its a massive living area I would have a second supplementary 0.8 or 1.4 somewhere in the room its cheaper in the long run.

I think we're on the right lines then. Should be able to pick up a supplementary convection heater for the lounge/whatever room we're in. Portable would be best.

I will do a few more calculations and was planning on "over estimating" for that exact reason.

We're also improving the insulation of the loft as well as in all rooms by building window sills and insulating them. This accounts for a large portion of the exterior walls not covered by windows which is standard block work.

Richie-from-the-Boro

- a supplementary heater from a £10 Aldi to a £350 Snake Oil will do because a kWh is a kWh is a kWh
- over time more (+) insulation = (-) minus input energy costs but if the water storage has inadequate quantity or insulation
- I'd attend to the insulation on the water storage immediately, proper E7 direct cylinders have a dramatically lower loss rate

Storage & Capacity is the trick and as for cosmetic needs as rogerblack said a more than adequate re-paint can be done, they are a doddle to dismantle [ take care with the asbestos mat ] rub down, and paint. I've done it several times.

Additionally as rogerblack said at this time of the year you can get almost new ones free for 99p each on fleabay, just set the search to (1) auctions only (2) nearest first & collect only, wait & watch for a few weeks you will get your upscaled capacity 99p or vittually free.

pertinky

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

- I'd attend to the insulation on the water storage immediately, proper E7 direct cylinders have a dramatically lower loss rate

Thats exactly what we have planned; Direct unvented hot water tank with the lower 3kW element being run on E7 to heat overnight.

pertinky

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

Additionally as rogerblack said at this time of the year you can get #url removed# almost new ones free for 99p each on fleabay, just set the search to (1) auctions only (2) nearest first & collect only, wait & watch for a few weeks you will get your #url removed#.

Excellent thought. There is an element of snobbery at play here because a) we're moving them due to moving some internal walls and b) they really do look as old as the property and will really bring down in interior. I couldn't even find any model information on them or recognise the brand and are a dank dark grey colour. That first link is promising (depending on the size of the 2 smaller ones) as its only 100miles. No problems going to pick them if bagged for £50.

pertinky

pertinky wrote: »

Excellent thought. There is an element of snobbery at play here because a) we're moving them due to moving some internal walls and b) they really do look as old as the property and will really bring down in interior. I couldn't even find any model information on them or recognise the brand and are a dank dark grey colour. That first link is promising (depending on the size of the 2 smaller ones) as its only 100miles. No problems going to pick them if bagged for £50.

Managed to pickup a 3.5kW Creda TSR for £32; probably an hr round trip to pick it up. Only a few years old.

Richie-from-the-Boro

pertinky wrote: »

Managed to pickup a 3.5kW Creda TSR for £32; probably an hr round trip to pick it up. Only a few years old.

- that'll be a 16 bricker and will be capable of about 24.0kWh maximum input flat out over 7 hours to deliver 3.5 per hour
- way to go then, they almost never break even after 50 years, I had an 'in heater' fuse go, the only thing in 45 years
- over time my good lady has made me colour co-ordinate on more than one occasion on the same heater
- if you want it / them in a different place, or even an extra 0.8 or 1.4 in the same room get the wiring extended while you're clonking walls down
- the trick is set the stat the night before and flaps [damper] always closed

Best of luck M8, after 45 or more years in different dwellings I've learned that having more than needed storage is the way to go. Most complaints I see in this group about cold and running out of heat output in those six or so cold weeks of the years are caused by insufficient storage of the cheap stuff.

Most people reading this missive could solve next years cold problem by doing what you have just done. Go onto flea bay after easter and replace their heater with a 30% bigger one for coppers, or get a~n~other extra 1kWh for peanuts and add a supplementary storage heater to their main living area.

pertinky

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

- that'll be a 16 bricker and will be capable of about 24.0kWh maximum input flat out over 7 hours to deliver 3.5 per hour
- way to go then, they almost never break even after 50 years, I had an 'in heater' fuse go, the only thing in 45 years
- over time my good lady has made me colour co-ordinate on more than one occasion on the same heater
- if you want it / them in a different place, or even an extra 0.8 or 1.4 in the same room get the wiring extended while you're clonking walls down
- the trick is set the stat the night before and flaps [damper] always closed

Best of luck M8, after 45 or more years in different dwellings I've learned that having more than needed storage is the way to go. Most complaints I see in this group about cold and running out of heat output in those six or so cold weeks of the years are caused by insufficient storage of the cheap stuff.

Most people reading this missive could solve next years cold problem by doing what you have just done. Go onto flea bay after easter and replace their heater with a 30% bigger one for coppers, or get a~n~other extra 1kWh for peanuts and add a supplementary storage heater to their main living area.

Ye its the manual rather than the automatic so will need to learn how to set it correctly for my environment. I'm not sure how much better the automatic ones would be though; presumably they would be worse as I lose the ability to regulate the dissipation of the heat.

Will be looking at picking up 1 more 3.4 kWH for downstairs (maybe 2 - although im reluctant about installing one in the designated dog area [hallway]) and then a smaller one for the study for when I work from home.

Like you say I'd rather have more than less. Can always switch them off