The Most Important Document You Will Never Read....

DervProf

RenovationMan wrote: »

Annuity rates are poor now but that impacts people who are about to take their pensions, not people who are building up a pension pot.

Again, a brilliant observation.

People who are now retiring were obviously not very astute when they decided to start paying into their pension. You however, timed your retirement for when annuities will be at their highest, and even if they are not, your pension pot will be like your opinion of yourself - massive.

BobQ

lisyloo wrote: »

Paul - I think you are being serious so I'll bite.
Whatever your beliefs the majority will not or can not kill themselves.
Some people believe it's a sin and others simply don't have the guts.
I see the sense in what you are saying but it's not going to happen on a large scale.

Not sure I agree. This is true when you are young, fit and thiink you will live forever, but as you get older and if and when you start to feel disabled, frail and vulnerable you are more willing to consider euthanasia. The problem is how to judge the moment..... while you have the right to decide and the means to do it.

CLAPTON

ruggedtoast wrote: »

If the rental market fell then there probably would be some more downward pressure on house prices, for the time being though the UK seems to be becoming a two tier society of the property haves, and the renting have nots.

Its morally repugnant, but thats England for you.

given that during most of the last 67 years, the level of home owmership was less than it is now, do you believe all that time was less morally repugnant or more morally repugant that now?

and do note that property ownership in Wales is higher than England
but of course you do

Itismehonest

BobQ wrote: »

Not sure I agree. This is true when you are young, fit and thiink you will live forever, but as you get older and if and when you start to feel disabled, frail and vulnerable you are more willing to consider euthanasia. The problem is how to judge the moment..... while you have the right to decide and the means to do it.

Plus the need to find a way to ensure that those with relatives with an eye on an inheritance aren't bumped off to order.
Sorry, it had to be said.
There's a lot of evil !!!s out there.

Loughton_Monkey

lisyloo wrote: »

Paul - I think you are being serious so I'll bite.
Whatever your beliefs the majority will not or can not kill themselves.
Some people believe it's a sin and others simply don't have the guts.
I see the sense in what you are saying but it's not going to happen on a large scale.

It doesn't need the majority to do it. Just 22 or so Government Ministers, plus every senior civil servant and Local Authority 'manager' - and perhaps a few bankers.

Then install a Government with a backbone who will dismantle the ridiculous welfare/nanny state. Freeze all benefits (including State Pension). Instigate a massive QE program to cause inflation and reduce national debt to zero (and accelerate the devaluation/cost of benefits). Then it's just a matter of time. Business will be booming as we can sell goods/services at a competitive price. Only re-index 'benefits' when they become truly subsistance level (as originally intended).

You know it makes sense.

Gin & Tonics all round.....

BobQ

Itismehonest wrote: »

Plus the need to find a way to ensure that those with relatives with an eye on an inheritance aren't bumped off to order.
Sorry, it had to be said.
There's a lot of evil !!!s out there.

Thats easy you leave your estate to charity and tell the relatives that you are doing so. They then have to spend their efforts keeping you alive long enough to persuade you to change it.:)

Edit But you are right it does need to be considered. I was only thinking of what an individual might want to do but there are those who would only be too pleased to hasten the process.

Graham_Devon

The trouble with expecting people to save up for their own retirement is that I honestly don't believe the average joe worker would be able to earn enough in their working lifetimes to cover the costs.

I don't see how someone who has just saved enough to buy their first house (or is paying ever increasing rent) at 30-35 can then be expected to pay off the mortgage, pay the council tax, pay the costs of transport, bring up the kids, live, AND save enough to cover an average pension.

What are the numbers we are talking in todays money to provide an average pension? I see 300-500k thrown around quite a bit. That's a 12-15 years solid work out of a possible 50 years work on that sort of wage (ignoring returns - as that hasn't worked out too well lately).

Just where would the money come from to cover this while covering all other bases? If we need to save for pensions, we need a lower cost of living while working.

Loughton_Monkey

Graham_Devon wrote: »

The trouble with expecting people to save up for their own retirement is that I honestly don't believe the average joe worker would be able to earn enough in their working lifetimes to cover the costs.

I don't see how someone who has just saved enough to buy their first house (or is paying ever increasing rent) at 30-35 can then be expected to pay off the mortgage, pay the council tax, pay the costs of transport, bring up the kids, live, AND save enough to cover an average pension.

What are the numbers we are talking in todays money to provide an average pension? I see 300-500k thrown around quite a bit. That's a 12-15 years solid work out of a possible 50 years work on that sort of wage (ignoring returns - as that hasn't worked out too well lately).

Just where would the money come from to cover this while covering all other bases? If we need to save for pensions, we need a lower cost of living while working.

A popular point of view, I reckon, but misses a fundamental point.

I refer to the "cost of living". Therein lies the rub.

Please replace the words "cost of living" by "cost of living the life I want to lead."

I really doesn't matter much what salary level you want to quote. If you quote a low one - say up to £12K - then it is reasonably legitimate to spend every penny and the eventual drop to State Pension + benefits is not large.

But take someone on, say, £20K. He says "How can I possibly save anything for retirement on that? I would need to spend only £18K to save properly. That's impossible...."

The point is, it doesn't matter who this individual is, I can guarantee that there is a family in his/her area who is in exactly the same position (family-wise) who only earns £18 and - more to the point - lives on it.

OK, I'm not saying it's easy, but we really must move towards understanding that what someone spends is very largely choice. Once they build up a lifestyle (100% of earnings) - through their own choice - of course they are then 'locked in' and their rent/mortgage, plus bills, car payments, plus modest grocery bills..... add up to 100% of earnings. But they didn't have to get themselves into that position. They did so because of greed or ignorance.

I just cannot tolerate an attitude or behaviour that simply builds up (by choice) a personal 'cost of living' equal to 100% (or more) of income and then pleads poverty every time they need a boiler repair, or are recommended to save for retirement.

grizzly1911

DervProf wrote: »

Again, a brilliant observation.

People who are now retiring were obviously not very astute when they decided to start paying into their pension. You however, timed your retirement for when annuities will be at their highest, and even if they are not, your pension pot will be like your opinion of yourself - massive.

You beat me to it.

Reno man is self investing, so he will be alright, he has the angles covered until the Chancellor of the day takes some wild swipes.

For the other of oiks who thought it would be wonderful, and remember when they told us don't worry if they don't perform in the short term you need to consider them as long term investments.:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

CLAPTON

Loughton_Monkey wrote: »

A popular point of view, I reckon, but misses a fundamental point.

I refer to the "cost of living". Therein lies the rub.

Please replace the words "cost of living" by "cost of living the life I want to lead."

I really doesn't matter much what salary level you want to quote. If you quote a low one - say up to £12K - then it is reasonably legitimate to spend every penny and the eventual drop to State Pension + benefits is not large.

But take someone on, say, £20K. He says "How can I possibly save anything for retirement on that? I would need to spend only £18K to save properly. That's impossible...."

The point is, it doesn't matter who this individual is, I can guarantee that there is a family in his/her area who is in exactly the same position (family-wise) who only earns £18 and - more to the point - lives on it.

OK, I'm not saying it's easy, but we really must move towards understanding that what someone spends is very largely choice. Once they build up a lifestyle (100% of earnings) - through their own choice - of course they are then 'locked in' and their rent/mortgage, plus bills, car payments, plus modest grocery bills..... add up to 100% of earnings. But they didn't have to get themselves into that position. They did so because of greed or ignorance.

I just cannot tolerate an attitude or behaviour that simply builds up (by choice) a personal 'cost of living' equal to 100% (or more) of income and then pleads poverty every time they need a boiler repair, or are recommended to save for retirement.

suppose, just suppose that through some miracle of prudence everyone starting saving for their pension and so in 30 years time every single person reaching pensionable age had a healthy pension, all self funded

would this overcome the problem of the demographic time bomb?
in other words, as long as all pensioners had lots of money saved, would it matter that there wasn't many people of working age?