hsbc using dirty tricks!!!!

Catherine_Johnson_2

But, at the end of the day, you let someone see the PIN number for your card? Doesn't matter whether that was because you were distracted because of babies, prams or whatever.

Why should HSBC be liable because you let others know your PIN number? I can't understand your point.

I know it was traumatic having a purse stolen and money taken from your account, but how are HSBC liable?

playforth

Catherine_Johnson wrote: »

But, at the end of the day, you let someone see the PIN number for your card? Doesn't matter whether that was because you were distracted because of babies, prams or whatever.

The Payment Services Directive, which is the law of the land, specifically states that use of the correct PIN is not evidence of negligence.
thankyou to opinions4u for this info.

jonesMUFCforever

playforth wrote: »

The Payment Services Directive, which is the law of the land, specifically states that use of the correct PIN is not evidence of negligence.
thankyou to opinions4u for this info.

Perhaps you can give examples then of when it is negligence?

gt94sss2

playforth wrote: »

The Payment Services Directive, which is the law of the land, specifically states that use of the correct PIN is not evidence of negligence.

Yes - you may find this link helpful which also confirms this.

However, the PSD also includes of other things like:

There is a legal obligation on the customer to use any payment instrument (e.g. a credit card) in accordance with its terms and conditions of issue, to take all reasonable steps to keep it secure, and to notify the issuer without undue delay of its loss, theft, misappropriation or unauthorised use.

However, I can understand why HSBC have reached their view in your case - it just doesn't sound likely that someone will view a PIN number and then follow you around for 75 minutes..

btw, I thought the default withdrawal limit on HSBC debit cards was £300/day. Do you know how they managed to take out more?

Regards
Sunil

playforth

I really thought this site was different, i thought i would get some genuine help and info on what to do which is why i joined this site. Iv only had a few people with helpful ideas. You seem to be the only people i know that are actually on the banks side. Iv given you all the facts yet you still say the banks decision is ok. Think i chose the wrong site for advice

antrobus

playforth wrote: »

The Payment Services Directive, which is the law of the land, specifically states that use of the correct PIN is not evidence of negligence.
thankyou to opinions4u for this info.

Well actually I think he means the Payment Services Regulations 2009 which implemented the PSD, but I think he's quite right.

Specfically regulation 62 which states that a "payer is liable up to a maximum of £50 for any losses incurred in respect of unauthorised payment transactions arising - (a) from the use of a lost or stolen payment instrument; or (b)where the payer has failed to keep the personalised security features of the payment instrument safe, from the misappropriation of the payment instrument", except where the payer has either "acted fraudulently" or "has with intent or gross negligence failed to comply with regulation 57" - since Regulation 57 imposes the obligation on a "payment service user" to "take all reasonable steps to keep its personalised security features safe".

(So it seems that the £50 limit applies to debit card transactions irrespective of whether it was being used as a credit token as defined by the CCA 1974.)

Presumably therefore HSBC's position is that the OP is guilty of "gross negligence" in failing to take all "reasonable steps" to safeguard the personalised security features of the payment instrument concerned. Or as we would say in English, the PIN linked to their debit card.

Complain to HSBC. Take it to FOS if necessary.

meer53

I think what HSBC will say is that you have failed in your obligations (as per your account T & C's) to keep your PIN safe, therefore your claim is invalid. They have investigated your claim and by allowing your PIN to be used (whether it was over your shoulder or was in your handbag) HSBC can hold you liable.

This is taken from the PSD Regulations.

8.101 There is a balance to be struck between a customer’s right to an immediate refund for an unauthorised payment transaction, and the need to determine whether the payment transaction was properly authorised, or whether the customer has failed in their own obligations with regard to the payment instrument used, so that the claim is invalid. We expect payment service providers to take a reasonable approach to this. In our view it would usually be reasonable to investigate a claim before making
a refund if there is prima facie evidence to suggest that either the customer has acted fraudulently or that he has deliberately or grossly negligently failed to comply with his obligations in relation to the payment instrument. Otherwise, we would generally expect the payment service provider to make the refund and other correcting actions
immediately.

Payment instrument - Card

meer53

playforth wrote: »

I really thought this site was different, i thought i would get some genuine help and info on what to do which is why i joined this site. Iv only had a few people with helpful ideas. You seem to be the only people i know that are actually on the banks side. Iv given you all the facts yet you still say the banks decision is ok. Think i chose the wrong site for advice

You are getting genuine help and advice. You've given us the facts, that fact is that HSBC think you have been negligent with your card and PIN, what do you want us to say ? That they're wrong and you should have your money back ? We can't say that because the fact is that your card and pin WERE used.

You chose the right site, you just don't like the replies !

playforth

meer53 wrote: »

You are getting genuine help and advice. You've given us the facts, that fact is that HSBC think you have been negligent with your card and PIN, what do you want us to say ? That they're wrong and you should have your money back ? We can't say that because the fact is that your card and pin WERE used.

Well I'm sure if she had been mugged and hurt whilst they stole her bag everyone wouldn't make comments about negligence! I only wanted advice on how to deal with this situation not on a debate on whether the bank is right or wrong!!

playforth

gt94sss2 wrote: »

btw, I thought the default withdrawal limit on HSBC debit cards was £300/day. Do you know how they managed to take out more?

Well that's not what my partners is, hsbc changed it for her a couple of years ago when we needed to draw £400 for rent, and they never changed it back, it was a £200 limit before.