Stolen phone racked up charges. Why do I have to pay?

Buzby

You are confusing the cost-price debate with a waiver tha may (or may not) be offered by the network a a goodwill gesture. There is no right to this, and if the network feels there is carelessness or user negligence, they can refuse to modify the bill.

The customer is bound under contact law, as such must pay all amounts used as part of the agreement.

NFH

Naf wrote: »

this is a service and associated goods after you have taken possession and started using.

We're not talking here about the customer using the service, but about criminal (fraudulent) usage by a third party, and the third party is not a party to the contract. The customer is liable for his negligence, but only for the loss suffered by the network. The customer is not liable to pay a profit margin to the network on top of its loss.

Naf wrote: »

Why do you assume someone is misinformed?

Because he did not explain his response with any reasoning or explanation.

Naf wrote: »

The calls/data etc. have been used on the phone account, and the operator needs to be paid for it.

The operator needs to be paid only for its loss, not for any profit margin on top of that loss.

Naf wrote: »

otherwise people could simply rack up a massive bill, then claim loss/theft and avoid paying for what they used.

That would be fraud by the customer, and the customer would be very foolish to do such a thing, given that a police report would usually be required. We are not talking about that scenario here anyway.

OP, offer to pay Orange for its loss, i.e. cost price, but not the full retail price. In future, set a PIN code on both your SIM card and your phone, as others have correctly advised.

Charliechoochoo

Just to add, the thief clearly knew what they were doing. The phone had a lock on it that was active, so phone locks are clearly not great security. I had insurance, but this does not cover unlawful useage (I have now learned to read the small print on such insurance). I am mainly shocked by the unwillingness of the service provider to offer any other options regarding payment. It is becoming increasingly obvious that I am going to have to pay the bill somehow, its just finding the money within their set time periods is going to be a challenge - especially as I don't feel I should have to pay it. First I was the victim of a crime, and now I have to pay for it. It just seems unfair.

Charliechoochoo

Oh and these were professionals. The numbers called on the phone were three numbers, with the last digit different (so clearly lines to themselves). These three numbers were called all through the night. Again, frustrating as it is obvious that this was not me.

Thank you everyone for your advice so far.

wantmemoney

What was the country where your phone was stolen?

The numbers sound like they were 'international premium rate'. That would mean Orange are taking a cut. What were they?

this may interest you.
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?352355-Stolen-phone-charges-is-goodwill-the-only-way-to-reduce-my-bill

grumbler

I think Orange are taking a cut from all calls.

Guys_Dad

NFH wrote: »

I think you're liable only for the cost price, not for the full retail price, of the stolen usage. It's a bit like if you damage something in a shop accidentally; you are liable only for the cost price of the goods, not for the full retail price.

I like this line of thought and it would be really good news if it was fact. However, looking at the number of similar loss threads on this forum and the subsequent resolution/outcome, I haven't seen any evidence of any of them being settled on this basis.

I fear that the contract charge rates would still apply, but it would be excellent news for MSE members if you had any settled legal cases you could refer members to that they might use as some form of precedent.

wantmemoney

grumbler wrote:

I think Orange are taking a cut

which Orange? Orange UK or the Orange Network in the other country that Orange UK want to send the money to.

http://money.aol.co.uk/2012/07/02/what-really-happens-when-your-mobile-phone-is-stolen/?icid=money%7CDL_1_link
What really happens when your mobile is stolen
Jul 2, 2012

For a long time I rather naively thought the thieves were calling their mums back in their home countries – but the truth is a lot more sinister than that.

Premium rate and profit share
The mobile phone thieves who nick your phone from your bag in the pub are part of much bigger organised gangs.

The gangs rent premium rate telephone numbers around the world and, after they've stolen your phone, use it to call them. These numbers can cost anything from £1 to £10 a minute to call.

Because premium numbers share revenue between the provider and the person who purchases them, the fraudsters can generate significant revenues by keeping your phone connected to their own premium rate number.

So, the premium rate number provider profits from the theft, the thief does, and so does your mobile network which bills you for the calls.

The OP and other people who have this problem should seek help and advice from people who don't appear to have an agenda to protect and defend the 'you are liable' status quo.

In this example Vodafone (UK) was trying to share the revenue with a foreign Network in South Africa (Vodafone SA)
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?352355-Stolen-phone-charges-is-goodwill-the-only-way-to-reduce-my-bill

after a national newspaper contacted the OP to run a story Vodafone inexplicably decided not to pursue the money.

Jon_01

The premium rate scam is only a tiny part of what happens with stolen phones.

Most of them have the sim removed and the handset is either sold on Gumtree or the 'bay, or if its organized crime sent overseas where its sold at something like face value.

The sims stuck in another phone and then taken to area's where people are charged about 10% of the real cost of the call so they can call all over the world. Once that's sims blacklisted they go and get another one, and so on...

pimento

Can a thief get past a SIM PIN? When I power my phone up I have to put two PINs in. One that unlocks my SIM card and one that unlocks my phone.

Does the SIM lock mean that a thief cannot put the SIM into another phone and make calls without getting past the SIM lock?