Suing LL - Waiting for court date.

Thrugelmir

leon91 wrote: »

all the while my LL recieved a payment everymonth ( not the full rent but still £200 out of £275

Who was the payment made by?

Oliviana_London

Mind that one LL tricked his tenant to move out for 2 weeks time, in order for him to sort the flat (some stuff was broken) After 2 week the LL changed locks and rented to someone else! By the time the case went to court, the LL sold the flat! You do not want to know how much money the Judge took from the LL!!! around 40k! Consider also that the tenant was late with his rent around 7 months (the tenant upheld the rent because of the conditions of the flat and because the LL was refusing to do any repairing) Consider that the tenant took the majority of his belongings, but not all -some furniture and stuff was left there as he was suppose to come back in 2 weeks. Still, the Judge just destroyed the LL. Why? Judges, well the majority, just hate the LL who are doing illegal eviction! It s so simple: you want the tenant out, go to Court! U are not going to Court and u think to play smart, then u are in so much trouble, there is no Judge who would not feel strong about the LLs who decided to take actions in their own hands, and avoid the Courts... laws... And more, the Judges are very familiar with the LL tricks and so, specially because the law gives a lot more protection and rights to the tenants and not LL. But specifically this LL, very stupid! U just do not leave a family with kids in cold and dark, without gas and electricity, u temporally force them out of the house, u still take money from them, then u just seal their belongings and change the locks and rent to someone else! U just can't do that! No way! Thank God this family had where to urgently move! What if they didn't? Imagine some kids leaving in dark and cold! My God I am upset! Present the case like this to the Judge, see how he feels regarding a LL playing with the safety of a family and kids!

Oliviana_London

Ok, sorry, my mistake... they were not left without gas and electricity! Than the OP can claim he was afraid to live there as long as there was a possibility to remain without gas and electricity! A parent has to do what he has to do to keep safe his kids...

Oliviana_London

Need the OP to reconfirm or infirm regarding the gas and electricity! Were those cut off? Judge will understand someone wanting to keep safe their kids (safe from lack of gas, electricity, safe from any bailiff wrongly get inside the property and seal goods in the name of a formal tenant or LL) The LL needs to sort the accounts for his property, if a former tenant left a debts, then the LL is the one that has to be in contact with the provider, sending a tenancy agreement and all the details regarding the formal tenant!
One thing I dont understand, did the OP open an account with gas and electricity? When u move somewhere you call the providers and u tell them u moved and u want to start an account... and they will start sending bills on your name for that address! That should keep any safe from the previous tenants debts...

Oliviana_London

Notmyrealname wrote: »

Quite simply the services were there. The gas and electricity had not been disconnected nor the utility companies refusing to reconnect. You could turn on the lights and the heating/cooker. The fact you'd be paying someone elses debt through the meter does not alter the fact that the services were available.

Notmyrealname, you are right... I didn t read all the posts, so yes... he didn't need to vacate the property! I do not know how he will justify that! Better he would have stayed there and just take the money for the debt out of the rent (well the 75 he was topping to the House benefit), although it was not really the LL fault.
And then now I understand who paid the £200 rent every month when Leo was not living there! The LL got the money from the Council as a house benefit, and the rent was not paid by OP in fact! Nope, if the Council paid those 200... this looks like abandonment to me now! Jumped to the conclusion I think!
Leo, you should have complained to the provider, write to the gas regulator to sort this debt! As long as u were on the Council Bill, or the LL contacted the provider to confirm that he rented to someone else, they would have sorted the problem and refunded your money... still the top up meter is different, the debts stay there, this is why a lot of LL are putting unlawful meters... there for I believe it was unlawful for the LL to rent the property knowing that there is a debt on the meters subject to the be paid by the habitant.
Still, the LL should have never accepted the 200 from the Council, when he changed the locks and rented to someone else! He should have contacted the Council the minute Leo abandoned the house, or the minute the LL considered the house abandoned! By not doing that.. or the LL been stealing the money from the Council (I suspect the House Benefit was paid directly to the LL) or the house had not been abandoned by Leo, and in fact the LL did illegal eviction! Which is worst?
Still Leo could state he provisionally moved his family due to impossibility to pay the debt, and he had all the intention to move back since he did not inform the Council to stop any payments to the LL! At the end of the day, why would Leo give the council money to the LL, if he did not intend to keep the property nor he was living there... he moved his family cause he could not afford to pay for that debt.. although he did not top up the 75 pounds to the rent during his absence.. (u could have stayed in the property and pay the debt and not top up the 75 towards the rent, as you did not top that money anyway during this time).... hmmmmmm

Oliviana_London

Leo, I see the situation like this:
1. give to your solicitor all yours and your family expenses breakdown (you need to really be broke, really... to convince the judge that you in fact could not afford paying the £7/week debt and you were forced to move)
2. Then think of an explanation why you stopped paying the £75 difference on the rent, since you moved so you didn't need to cover the £7/week in debt. Did u pay some rent where you moved provisionally? Hence will make no sense to have spent more living where you moved, than covering the £7/week in debts! But then, makes no sense why you did not pay your share towards the rent (the £75) You not having money and LL being rich is not a good justification!
3. any kind of attempts during this period to sort the problem with the debt (e-mail to the providers... something to show and prove that you indeed were seeking to sort the debt issue in order to return to the property)
4. since LL did not claim abandonment (which I doubt he will do consider he did not report to the council the abandonment and carried on cashing the Council money) then your solicitor should claim illegal eviction.
5. if the landlord claims abandonment in return to the illegal eviction, then your solicitor can ask the LL to explain why he did not report the abandonment to the Council and kept on cashing the money. LL should of called the Council in the minute he suspected that the house had been abandoned (then the Council would have investigated the matter since the Council was paying the majority of the rent)
6. Since the House Benefit was paid directly to the LL, then you lack the reason to have abandoned the house but not stop the Council paying the 200 towards the property rent to your LL account. Did you call the Council to stop any payments straight away after you left the property? Hence that if u did, then you abandoned the property!
7. if the Judge is satisfied that this is illegal eviction than you can claim compensation for both goods left in the property, plus breach of the tenancy agreement and other claims.
8. If the Judge will rule over abandonment... then well, what u had and what you lost! people lose much more in life! Next time study properly before deciding to make a step in any direction!
9. Mind that is in your own benefit that the LL cashed the 200 from the Council during the time you did not live there! That makes you still his tenant, and not an abandoner of the property! Or this can make the LL a benefit thief and you a property abandoner! You need to convince the Judge over the first possibility.
10. DID U PAY ANY DEPOSIT TO THE LL? IS THE DEPOSIT PROTECTED? YOU CAN GET UP TO 3 TIMES THE VALUE OF THE UNPROTECTED DEPOSIT, PLUS THE DEPOSIT ITSELF... that would go towards 1k

I do not see any other grounds on what you could work this! Maybe others here can think at a different or better approach I hope I made the correct assumption regarding your situation.

P.S. If the gas provider is British Gas, then maybe your solicitor could remind the Judge that British Gas was fined with millions of pounds by the regulator for not offering a good customer service (clients were not receiving any replies to their complains and so)... this just to emphasize how hard was for you to begin to try to fix this issue with them, considering what kind of a customer service they are offering!

leon91

Hi everyone
Have a lot to catch up to

Not home at the moment so will reply as soon as im home

Cheers

leon91

1. give to your solicitor all yours and your family expenses breakdown (you need to really be broke, really... to convince the judge that you in fact could not afford paying the £7/week debt and you were forced to move)

I'll say now - I was not broke well not enough to not be able to pay for it.
I acted without thinking and looking back have made a royal b**ls up.
It was out of principal - why should I pay a debt not being mine?
why am I having meters changed when I have my own account?

I was scared, frustrated, not sure what it all meant for me at the time.
all I knew was I had to get to somewhere My children would be comfortable and safe/warm etc.

2. Then think of an explanation why you stopped paying the £75 difference on the rent, since you moved so you didn't need to cover the £7/week in debt. Did u pay some rent where you moved provisionally? Hence will make no sense to have spent more living where you moved, than covering the £7/week in debts! But then, makes no sense why you did not pay your share towards the rent (the £75) You not having money and LL being rich is not a good justification!

again - It was more principal than financial.
I had been let down and fobbed off by my LL over repairs and he was doing the same in regards to the bills etc.

I have no excuse as to the missing rent.
and at the time saw a solicitor who tried ( and failed ) to start comms with my LL

3. any kind of attempts during this period to sort the problem with the debt (e-mail to the providers... something to show and prove that you indeed were seeking to sort the debt issue in order to return to the property)

recorded phone calls - proof of my own account had been set up
and was in the process of changing suppliers. would that be enough?
however all records would be supplied by energy company as I had not yet received my 1st bill. ( and the spotted the error that day - but could not halt the meters being replaced as had already been carried out )

4. since LL did not claim abandonment (which I doubt he will do consider he did not report to the council the abandonment and carried on cashing the Council money) then your solicitor should claim illegal eviction.

I believe that was our initial thoughts
as we did not receive any letters or notice from LL or EA
(however apparently he did send it as its enclosed in the defence)
but I had a guarantor who also did not receive anything.
( I doubt both would go missing in post to separate addresses )
and I wouldn't have known they were from anyone in particular by looking at an envelope. That will be a hard point to prove - unless he has just made a "copy" up on the spot.
again - council were not informed by him at all or even EA until I myself informed them.

5. if the landlord claims abandonment in return to the illegal eviction, then your solicitor can ask the LL to explain why he did not report the abandonment to the Council and kept on cashing the money. LL should of called the Council in the minute he suspected that the house had been abandoned (then the Council would have investigated the matter since the Council was paying the majority of the rent

I think I covered on this in response to previous. but yes, one of the mitigating factors.

6. Since the House Benefit was paid directly to the LL, then you lack the reason to have abandoned the house but not stop the Council paying the 200 towards the property rent to your LL account. Did you call the Council to stop any payments straight away after you left the property? Hence that if u did, then you abandoned the property!

Informed them AFTER I discovered locks were changed / police called tried obtaining my property etc etc. I was locked out December - council informed same month -January.

7. if the Judge is satisfied that this is illegal eviction than you can claim compensation for both goods left in the property, plus breach of the tenancy agreement and other claims.

in all honesty - I have been so upset and had so much stress throughout this all, that I wouldn't even bother trying to claim anything more than the value of my property. As much as he has destroyed me at the moment.

8. If the Judge will rule over abandonment... then well, what u had and what you lost! people lose much more in life! Next time study properly before deciding to make a step in any direction!

Too right!
It's heartbreaking to say the least when you lose most of your belongings.
especially at such high value money wise.


9. Mind that is in your own benefit that the LL cashed the 200 from the Council during the time you did not live there! That makes you still his tenant, and not an abandoner of the property! Or this can make the LL a benefit thief and you a property abandoner! You need to convince the Judge over the first possibility.

lets hope eh?
I am seeing solicitors still and will be working as actively as we can to resolve this properly, and fairly ( both ways )

10. DID U PAY ANY DEPOSIT TO THE LL? IS THE DEPOSIT PROTECTED? YOU CAN GET UP TO 3 TIMES THE VALUE OF THE UNPROTECTED DEPOSIT, PLUS THE DEPOSIT ITSELF... that would go towards 1k

I did pay a deposit yes, and will look into that in detail.

I do not see any other grounds on what you could work this! Maybe others here can think at a different or better approach I hope I made the correct assumption regarding your situation.

P.S. If the gas provider is British Gas, then maybe your solicitor could remind the Judge that British Gas was fined with millions of pounds by the regulator for not offering a good customer service (clients were not receiving any replies to their complains and so)... this just to emphasize how hard was for you to begin to try to fix this issue with them, considering what kind of a customer service they are offering!

I think you have hit the nail on the head with your answers and points of view,
they do make sense and I hope all involved see through the complications to what is at the bottom of this whole mess.

No the energy was not B.G - I wont name them - just in case that somehow is wrong etc.

hope this allows you to offer more advice and helps others too - with a better understanding as to where I am and what happened.

Thanks again all and Oliviana London.
almost helps trying to talk about it.
I'm too ashamed to explain how I really feel to my family.

Oliviana_London

My pleasure! Hope you will be able to recover some of your lost if not all!
Remember that law is protecting tenants more than LL!

If the LL claims he sent a notice to you and/or guarantor, he will have to prove that! What Notice is the LL claiming he sent? Notice 8? 21?

Look into the deposit! You can get around 1k from there! Is something!

To be honest, as long you have receipts regarding your goods, I don't think that the Judge will not grant you compensation. The LL did not approach this situation in accordance with the law and judges tend to dislike any LL who does this, solve the problems how they see fit!

I doubt he will claim abandonment! As I said, by claiming abandonment he can not justify why he kept on cashing the Council money.

There for what he did is illegal eviction! An eviction in the absence of a court order in 99% of the cases is illegal. And it is unlawful to change the locks of a house prior to discus it with the tenant!

As I said before, the law is straight forward regarding tenants and LL! If the LL dislikes or has any reasons whatsoever to want the property back, HE CAN NOT ACT AS HE SEES FIT, HE ALWAYS HAS TO ASK THE COURT TO RULE OVER!

Good luck and go ahead! I think you have a good chance!

P.S. Try to avoid getting into too much detail regarding why you left the property! Have all the proofs prepared, but just stick to the main claim:
1. the LL did not properly address the notice
2. the LL unlawfully changed the locks of the house
3. the LL carried own cashing the house benefit there for the LL was still considering you his tenant
4. the LL sealed your property as to cover monies he claims you owe him. The LL decided to approach the situation how he saw fit, disregarding he needs to let a court rule over this.
You really do not need to justify why you provisionally moved out, AS LONG YOU DID NOT ABANDON THE PROPERTY! This doesnt not change the fact that the LL had no legal right to approach this situation outside the court and the law. But the judge might want to know details of why you moved, so be prepared just in case!
Again, do not go too much into the gas/electricity debt and the problems you had with the providers as this is not LL direct fault and is not justifying anything! Just stick with the LL actions which are unlawful! I would suggest to state that you moved only your family (wife and little kids) to protect them in case that the issue with the providers would have taken a bad turn! You remained in the property, but of course you spent the majority of the time when not at work, where your family was. Is like I would live alone and spent the majority of my time at my boyfriend (if in one month I spend 3 weeks at my boyfriend, this doent mean I abandoned my property and I stopped being a tenant at my property!!!)!!! But you need to be well prepared if the judge wants to know more regarding you and your family moving out of the property, regarding the problems with the providers and so!

leon91

My pleasure! Hope you will be able to recover some of your lost if not all!
Remember that law is protecting tenants more than LL!

If the LL claims he sent a notice to you and/or guarantor, he will have to prove that! What Notice is the LL claiming he sent? Notice 8? 21?

Look into the deposit! You can get around 1k from there! Is something!

To be honest, as long you have receipts regarding your goods, I don't think that the Judge will not grant you compensation. The LL did not approach this situation in accordance with the law and judges tend to dislike any LL who does this, solve the problems how they see fit!

I doubt he will claim abandonment! As I said, by claiming abandonment he can not justify why he kept on cashing the Council money.

There for what he did is illegal eviction! An eviction in the absence of a court order in 99% of the cases is illegal. And it is unlawful to change the locks of a house prior to discus it with the tenant!

As I said before, the law is straight forward regarding tenants and LL! If the LL dislikes or has any reasons whatsoever to want the property back, HE CAN NOT ACT AS HE SEES FIT, HE ALWAYS HAS TO ASK THE COURT TO RULE OVER!

Good luck and go ahead! I think you have a good chance!

P.S. Try to avoid getting into too much detail regarding why you left the property! Have all the proofs prepared, but just stick to the main claim:
1. the LL did not properly address the notice
2. the LL unlawfully changed the locks of the house
3. the LL carried own cashing the house benefit there for the LL was still considering you his tenant
4. the LL sealed your property as to cover monies he claims you owe him. The LL decided to approach the situation how he saw fit, disregarding he needs to let a court rule over this.
You really do not need to justify why you provisionally moved out, AS LONG YOU DID NOT ABANDON THE PROPERTY! This doesnt not change the fact that the LL had no legal right to approach this situation outside the court and the law. But the judge might want to know details of why you moved, so be prepared just in case!
Again, do not go too much into the gas/electricity debt and the problems you had with the providers as this is not LL direct fault and is not justifying anything! Just stick with the LL actions which are unlawful! I would suggest to state that you moved only your family (wife and little kids) to protect them in case that the issue with the providers would have taken a bad turn! You remained in the property, but of course you spent the majority of the time when not at work, where your family was. Is like I would live alone and spent the majority of my time at my boyfriend (if in one month I spend 3 weeks at my boyfriend, this doent mean I abandoned my property and I stopped being a tenant at my property!!!)!!! But you need to be well prepared if the judge wants to know more regarding you and your family moving out of the property, regarding the problems with the providers and so!


*********************************************

Thanks again Oliviana London.

I saw my solicitor and he basically said the same thing.
However he has mentioned actually further claims as a possibility - he is very familiar with my case, however to have his advice is £180 + VAT per hour as legal aid does not cover matters like this anymore.

was a tough choce to make as i do believe I have enough proof to stand a good chance.
In the end I decided to bite the bullet - he predicted around £1000+VAT would be about the total costs involved.
I decided I would rather use his help than screw it up at the last hurdle.

again - as much as this is financial it is also principal.

Your advice has honestly given me a boost recently and helped through some of the most bleak days I've had.

Thanks so much!

BTW:
It may take time - but I'll make sure to update the thread with bits and bobs along the way.

Wish me luck!