Fraud on newphew card

MPH80

agrinnall wrote: »

Did you actually bother to read the OP? Everything you have questioned has already been stated there - the transactions were C&P verified, and the card has been lost.

I stand corrected - I skim read the original post and missed the bit about it being "lost".

andrew-the-cat

Might be worth getting hold of the filling stations involved and trying to find out whether the transactions were for petrol or diesel. If they were all for diesel then it is highly likely a group of a certain type of people who like to travel around the country with caravans may have got hold of your nephews card and pin and were taking it in turns to fill their vehicles up.

pqrdef

starM wrote: »

I have ruled out the possibility of someone observing your PIN and then taking your card, as your last genuine transaction was a week before the first transaction you have disputed. It is highly unlikely an unknown third party would have waited a week to use your card if they had stolen your card after observing you enter you PIN on 27 April 2012.

But it seems they couldn't have used the card successfully earlier, because there wasn't any money in the account until the "suspicious" credit was paid in.

What you don't know is whether somebody was trying to use the card earlier, and having it declined for lack of funds. If they were, then there's a gaping hole in HSBC's argument here.

Other questions are (1) was the PIN guessable (2) was the same PIN used for anything else?

starM

Been speaking with my nephew and brother in law yesterday. Got some more information. On 27th April my newphew withdraw £20 from his account because they were going on a college trip. Because of £20 withdrawl the account was overdrawn by £10.27. Our understanding is poss someone from college itself manage to see his pin number when he was entering it and kept note of it. Then later when it was possible they manage to stole his card - I think this was after couple of days. Also credit paid on 04/05 at 15.24 £15 Washwood Heath branch was not paid by my nephew or brother in law. The person taken the card should have credited the money so account gets in credit by £4.73 so they can use the card. They never visited Washwood Heath branch. The other strange thing is just after just an hour later card was used at Small Heath Morrisons Patrol - time was 16.17. I have feeling they must have used card machine near the pumps rather than handing the card to Asda staff. I have read somewhere on MSE that these types of machines do not check bal when authorising the payment as long as the card is off line card e.g. not a Visa Electron type.

My nephew also telephoned HSBC and no attempts was made to withdraw cash from cash machine.

What will you suggest now? Should I write to HSBC with the above information or go straight to FSA.

Thanks - much appreciated

Rav3n

In my experience when a bank says that the PIN was used, it's not always the case.

However it is now hard to use a UK card without the PIN. UK cards are known as 201 cards. "201" is on the string of numbers on the magstripe which basically tell the machine that the particular card is a chip & PIN card. There are very few machines that will authorise a 201 transaction without a chip. Most of the ones that do are in other countries that don't use chip & PIN yet.

It's therefore very hard to use a cloned card like you could before the chip & pin days. Even if somebody skimmed his card and got his PIN number, it would be hard to use. If the card was swiped like older cards or foreign cards would be, the transaction would most likely be declined as the machine would detect that it was a 201 card.

There have been some people who have been able to copy peoples cards with a chip that will accept any PIN, but this kind of fraud is not widespread and it's very hard to get your hands on the equipment needed to do this. If this has been done, the bank will think that the correct PIN has been used.

If I had to guess, I think that somebody has skimmed his card and copied his PIN number. They've then found somewhere that will process 201s without a chip. All the payments seem to be to petrol stations, do these have self service pumps? Maybe these accept payment without a chip.

It's a pretty stupid place to use a stolen credit card. Most likely their registration numbers will be caught on camera. I would go down to the petrol stations and explain your situation to the manager. Hopefully they will let you see the footage then report the cards used to the police. Hopefully they are not running on false plates.

Hope this helps, and I hope everything works out for your nephew.

pqrdef

starM wrote: »

The person taken the card should have credited the money so account gets in credit by £4.73 so they can use the card.

How can the bank make something of the "noteworthy coincidence" if they've got no evidence of who paid in the £15 credit?

meer53

starM wrote: »

Been speaking with my nephew and brother in law yesterday. Got some more information. On 27th April my newphew withdraw £20 from his account because they were going on a college trip. Because of £20 withdrawl the account was overdrawn by £10.27. Our understanding is poss someone from college itself manage to see his pin number when he was entering it and kept note of it. Then later when it was possible they manage to stole his card - I think this was after couple of days. Also credit paid on 04/05 at 15.24 £15 Washwood Heath branch was not paid by my nephew or brother in law. The person taken the card should have credited the money so account gets in credit by £4.73 so they can use the card. They never visited Washwood Heath branch. The other strange thing is just after just an hour later card was used at Small Heath Morrisons Patrol - time was 16.17. I have feeling they must have used card machine near the pumps rather than handing the card to Asda staff. I have read somewhere on MSE that these types of machines do not check bal when authorising the payment as long as the card is off line card e.g. not a Visa Electron type.

My nephew also telephoned HSBC and no attempts was made to withdraw cash from cash machine.

What will you suggest now? Should I write to HSBC with the above information or go straight to FSA.

Thanks - much appreciated

You should write to the Appeal Manager as per their letter.

TheBanker

I would appeal with the bank first of all. Write a short and to the point letter setting out why you disagree with their decision and asking them to review the matter.

At the same time I would make a Subject Access Request specifically asking for all information held relating to the debit card including whether transactions were Chip and PIN verified, and full details of any declined transactions.

If your appeal fails then refer the matter to the FOS.

HSBC should put recovery action on hold while the matter is under investigation. Ask them to do this in your appeal letter. If they refuse, escalate straight to FOS. Once FOS receive your case phone them and ask them to get in touch with HSBC and ask for recovery action to be suspended pending the outcome of their investigation.

In the mean time Nephew may wish to open an alternative account so that he can access his funds.

Is Washwood Heath in your local area, and are all the petrol stations local?

It is unfortunate that the CCTV tapes from the petrol station are likely to have been re-used since more than a month has passed.

starM

Hi, An update on this - letter was sent to HSBC asking to review their decision. This is the response received:-

I write in relation to your request for a further review of your claim for the reimbursement of the disputed transactions on your HSBC Visa Debit Card.

Firstly, please accept my apologise for the delay in my response but it was essential I carry out through review of the circumstances surrounding your fraud claim.

Thank you for advising you did not make the £15 payment into your account at the HSBC Bank at Washwood Heath, Birmingham on 04 May 2012. I note when the payment was made your account was £10.27 overdrawn and the £15 payment took your account £4.73 in credit. I know you stated you did not pay the funds into your account but it would seem to me that the payment was made to bring your account out of its overdrawn position. This does not fit the pattern of a third party opportunist fraudster.

In your letter dated 29 June you suggested a third party might have observed you input your PIN when you withdraw £20 cash on 27 April (there was also a declined attempt to withdraw £10 on 28 April) and then obtained your card and PIN at later date when opportunity arose. I find this scenario highly unlikely.

As you are aware, CCTV was not obtained and HSBC took the decision you should remain responsible based on the information gained throughout the course of our enquiries. The Bank took into consideration our systems information, your comments and those of my colleagues. In any case, even if we had obtained CCTV recording, this does not mean you did not give your card and PIN to a third party.

You also mention HSBC have failed to protect your account by allowing the transactions to be authorised. In this respect, your case appeared on our Fraud Detection system and our team contacted you on 6 May 2012 at 09:54. I listened to this call and you confirmed the card was in your possession and that you had used your card at Asda Petrol and Morrisons the day before, which was the 5 May.

This is a direct contradiction of your later comments in which you stated you did not have the card and disputed all the transactions from 4 to 8 May. This sheds considerable doubt on the validity of your claim, and compounds the Bank’s view with regard to your responsibility for the transactions.

Having considered all the information surrounding your claim I am not convinced you have been victim of fraud or that you did not undertake the transaction yourself, or authorise a third party to do so.

While this may not be the outcome you were hoping for, I trust I have clarified the Bank’s position.

I am also obliged to inform you that this is our Final Response on the matter.

If you are not satisfied with the Bank’s response, you can now refer your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service. Further details about the Ombudsman scheme are set out in the enclosed leaflet and you have six months from the date of this letter within which to refer your complaint to them, should you decide to do so. Please be assured we will fully co-operate with any investigations made on your behalf by the Financial Ombudsman, and abide by their decision.

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One point I find strange they said a telephone call was made on 6 May to check if payments was made by my nephew. In which my nephew replied he has the card and used it at Asda & Morrisons. I have spoken with my brother in law and he spoken with his son. He cannot remember of receiving a such telephone call. I will write back to HSBC requested copy of the recording.

As far as I can understand the fraudster was well aware how HSBC system worked and fully aware that if account gets into credit they may be able to use the card at the Petrol Station. HSBC are saying it does not fit in 3rd party frausdster transaction. If someone can gain access to hundreds I dont see a reason why shouldnt they pay £15 from their own pocket.

We will be taking matter forward to FOS. At present they are charging debit interest at £13 pm - will this be stopped until a decision is made by FOS? The account is just getting more and more in red because of this.

What else would you suggest? Thanaks for all your comments.

innovate

Thank you for the update, it's always great when people come back with a progress report.

I am sorry to say, but the bank's latest response sounds somewhat convincing. You have done the correct thing to ask for a copy of the recording of the May 6 telephone call - this looks the only remote chance you still have to challenge the bank's position. I hope you will be able to prove that the person the bank spoke to was not your nephew - though the questions would then be who answered the phone when they called his number, and how did the fraudsters get the PIN for his card.

Good luck, keep us in the loop please!