O2 Phone Stolen and £600 unauthorised call charges

Silk

zagfles wrote: »

Absolute bullsh*t. Try reading any credit card T&Cs. Then try reading the Consumer Credit Act. Even if the customer is grossly negligent, eg writing the PIN number on the credit card, they are only liable for £50.

Not quite true I'm afraid .............
Up until the point that you notify your bank that your debit card has been lost or stolen, the most you can be liable for is £50.
And once you notify your bank, you won't be liable for any further amounts. The bank must reimburse you in full for any unauthorised transactions, less the £50.
This doesn't apply if the bank can show that you acted fraudulently.
Nor does it apply if your bank can show that you intentionally, or through gross negligence, failed to take reasonable steps to keep your PIN safe or failed to comply with obligations your bank sets out in its terms and conditions as to how you should use your card.
In other words gross negligence means you are liable for the loss not the bank

wantmemoney

Silk wrote:

This doesn't apply if the bank can show that you acted fraudulently.
Nor does it apply if your bank can show that you intentionally, or through gross negligence, failed to take reasonable steps to keep your PIN safe or failed to comply with obligations your bank sets out in its terms and conditions as to how you should use your card.
In other words gross negligence means you are liable for the loss not the bank

yes but what on earth has this got to do with stolen phones and unauthorised charges!

robbies_gal

why is it obvious though that it was stoeln if its internaitonal calls being made its perfectly acceptable that it coud be in the middle of the night

Silk

wantmemoney wrote: »

yes but what on earth has this got to do with stolen phones and unauthorised charges!

I was replying to zagfies post

zagfles wrote: »

Absolute bullsh*t. Try reading any credit card T&Cs. Then try reading the Consumer Credit Act. Even if the customer is grossly negligent, eg writing the PIN number on the credit card, they are only liable for £50.

Who claimed that it was bullsh*t .....it isn't
When you read the posts the OP claimed if it was a credit card it wouldn't happen, but sorry to say it can and does

AppleMatt

I know PINs feel safe, but they are not.

Handset PINs for iPhones, Android handsets, Nokia handsets etc. are easily bypassed through fairly easy-to-find software.

As an IT tech, I reset them at least once a month for users that have forgotten the number.

Thieves can just re-flash the software anyway, and go on using the phone. Although, once you report the phone stolen, the IMEI number is blacklisted (or at least on an alert list) across most (if not all) networks and that phone will not connect.

The SIM, however, can be put in other phones and used. PINs on SIMs (heh!), as far as I'm aware, are not easily bypassed by the average techie (police and other authorities I'm sure can, and higher-level crackers).

My advice: have a service such as Blackerry Protect, or Find my iPhone, or Sophos, Webroot, Avast etc. on your Android that allows remote wiping of the phone, and set a PIN on the SIM.

zagfles wrote: »

Takes me 2 seconds.

It might sound like a PITA but once you've got used to it you'll do it without even thinking about it. I do it automatically now as I'm taking my phone out of my pocket, don't even need to look at it.

Guys_Dad

What putting a PIN on the handset does, however, buy you some time.

The chances are that a thief doesn't have the technical equipment with him to break the handset PIN at the time of theft. He would have to go home or find someone who could break the code. That gives vital time for the theft to be discovered.

Also there is no point in having a sim PIN if the handset is on when stolen and unprotected with a handset pin because, as long as the handset is charged up, the sim PIN isn't being called upon.

It is the combination of both sim and handset PINs that offer the best protection.

In fact, if you want to go over the top, there is a 3rd PIN that ties the sim to the handset so that the sim in another phone doesn't work. (I had never heard of that one till I inadvertently set it on my OH's Samsung a couple of years ago and she then tried the sim in her new Samsung Android when away from home. Was I popular??)

zagfles

Silk wrote: »

Not quite true I'm afraid .............
Up until the point that you notify your bank that your debit card has been lost or stolen, the most you can be liable for is £50.

We were discussing credit cards. But anyway...

And once you notify your bank, you won't be liable for any further amounts. The bank must reimburse you in full for any unauthorised transactions, less the £50.
This doesn't apply if the bank can show that you acted fraudulently.

This is true.

Nor does it apply if your bank can show that you intentionally, or through gross negligence, failed to take reasonable steps to keep your PIN safe or failed to comply with obligations your bank sets out in its terms and conditions as to how you should use your card.
In other words gross negligence means you are liable for the loss not the bank

This is true for debit cards on an account in credit, but it is not true for credit cards, or for debit cards when the account is (or goes) overdrawn.

See these links:

See http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/ombudsman-news/46/46_plastic_cards.htm

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/ombudsman-news/3/plastic-cards.htm

So because the [consumer credit] act says that liability for unauthorised use of a credit-token is limited to £50, a firm cannot use the cardholder’s negligence in caring for the card and security information as its grounds for seeking to make the cardholder liable for more than £50

zagfles

Silk wrote: »

I was replying to zagfies post

Who claimed that it was bullsh*t .....it isn't

It is according to the financial ombudsman

When you read the posts the OP claimed if it was a credit card it wouldn't happen, but sorry to say it can and does

Only becuase a lot of people end up getting fobbed off by clueless bank staff who don't understand (or pretend not to understand) the law. If you write the PIN on the credit card and it gets stolen you can't be held liable for more than £50 (not that I recommend this:eek:). See the examples in the links I posted above.

Silk

zagfles wrote: »

We were discussing credit cards. But anyway...
This is true.
This is true for debit cards on an account in credit, but it is not true for credit cards, or for debit cards when the account is (or goes) overdrawn.

See these links:

See http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/ombudsman-news/46/46_plastic_cards.htm

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/ombudsman-news/3/plastic-cards.htm

Good point that you make ...however it's rather splitting hairs regarding the difference between Debit and Credit and it is not that clear cut as either way it can still cost the consumer a lot of money

Using the links you quote ......http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.u...stic_cards.htm

But they can be made liable for:

• losses arising from the use of a credit-token by someone who obtained possession of it with the cardholder’s consent; and
• the first £50 of any losses caused by the cardholder’s gross negligence in the care of their card or security details.

In the last two instances, however, the relevant part of the act does not impose liability – it simply allows the card issuer to do so. Whether or not a cardholder is liable in any particular case is likely to depend on the account terms.

IE the T&C's of the card issuer

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/ombudsman-news/3/plastic-cards.htm

case study
Miss H’s purse was stolen. It contained her card and an undisguised note of her PIN. The thief drew £750 from the account, taking it from a credit of £250 to an overdraft of £500.
The firm held Miss H liable for the full £750, because of her gross negligence in keeping an undisguised note of the PIN with the card.
We agreed she had been grossly negligent. That meant she had to stand the £250 credit drawn from the account. After that, as it was used to run up an overdraft, the card became a credit token. So Miss H only had to stand £50 of the £500 overdraft

So using that case study she was £300 down ...could have been worse though :rotfl:

zagfles

Silk wrote: »

Good point that you make ...however it's rather splitting hairs regarding the difference between Debit and Credit and it is not that clear cut as either way it can still cost the consumer a lot of money

Using the links you quote ......http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.u...stic_cards.htm




IE the T&C's of the card issuer

You're misreading that. It's saying the liability for the first £50 (in the case of negligence) or the whole lot (in the case of giving the card voluntarily to someone) is not specified by the CCA but can be specified in the T&Cs (and of course invariably will be).

But in the case of negligence the cardholder cannot be held liable for more than £50 in the case of a credit card or a debit card on an overdrawn account, whatever the T&Cs say.

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/ombudsman-news/3/plastic-cards.htm

So using that case study she was £300 down ...could have been worse though :rotfl:

Yup - the £250 positive balance plus £50 of the overdrawn balance. On a credit card there is never a positive balance (well very rarely) so the cardholder can only be held liable for £50 in the case of negligence.