PPI After IVA - HFC Reclaim Success Sort of? Please Help!

TomBoyNI

I have been directed to this forum from the PPI one, as apparently you guys should be able to help me out...


I received a letter from HFC stating that they have upheld my complaint.

Therefore have offered me a Full and Final Settlement figure of £2581.23.

The letter goes on to state that this sum of money will be used to offset my current debt.

The thing is I don't believe I have a debt with them?

The story is I entered an IVA and completed it in mid 2010. The final completion letter is dated 21/12/2012.

As part of this IVA HFC were one of my creditors, they entered a value of the debt to the IVA Practioner, this was modified once and agreed and at the completion of the IVA got their dividend.

Therefore as this has been completed and stamped by the High Court almost 2 years ago can HFC still say that I owe them money and will offset this claim against it?

I was under the impression that once completed the IVA was closed and any remaining debt written off?

Any help or advice, or similar experiences will be greatly received.

Thanks!

Tommy

TomBoyNI

I have drafted this letter in reply what do you guys reckon?


Dear Sir/Madam,

Re: Account No : XXXXXXXXXX
Your Reference : XXXXXXXXXXXX

I refer to your letter dated 13 June 2012 in which you voice your decision to uphold my complaint re Payment Protection Insurance. The offer including payments made and interest amount to an offer of £XXXXXX.

However you go on to state that you will be using this settlement to offset monies owed in relation to HFC Bank Account Number : XXXXXXXXXXX.

I feel that I do not owe HFC any money, the reasons for this conclusion are as follows:

1. On XXXXXXXX 2007 I entered an IVA, this IVA was accepted by my creditors, one of the creditors present at this meeting was HFC Bank Limited, the value of the vote quoted as £XXXXXXX The vote from HFC was to ‘Accept.’
2. The terms of my IVA mention windfalls, the document is quoted as follows : ‘Should the Debtor receive any windfall, asset or inheritance during the course of the Arrangement which would be deemed after acquired property within the meaning of Section 307 of the Insolvency Act 1986, it must immediately be paid or transferred to the Supervisor up to the value necessary to pay the creditors in the Arrangement 100p in the £ plus statutory interest.’
3. On XXXXXXXXX 2010 I completed this IVA, the certificate of completion is dated XXXXX/2010. Therefore all debts I had at this time were considered fully implemented under the Insolvency Order (NI) 1989.

An agreed dividend has been paid to HFC Bank in respect of this IVA, I further understand this dividend is offered as a Full and Final payment in respect of the debt, any remaining debt is then written off.

This seems to be the same way as you have offered a ‘Full and Final Settlement’ in your letter dated 13 June 2012. An acceptance of this Full and Final Settlement offered by HFC would surely then leave me with no redress in the future? I find it unfair then that you should try to offset this money against a debt which has been settled in the eyes of the High Court, and subsequently written off, even more so that you have upheld that this is in fact money that I never should have been paying as the PPI in question was in fact mis-sold.

From the terms of this IVA, which was accepted by HFC Bank and ruled on by the High Court you can see Windfalls are only mentioned ‘during the course of the Arrangement.’

This arrangement is now finished and has been completed for almost 18 months.

The arrangement was completed via a Full and Final payment, which was agreed by my Creditors on XXXXXXX 2010. The Resolution quoted as: ‘That the creditors accept the total sum of £XXXXXX in full and final settlement of the arrangement resulting in the final estimated dividend of XX pence in the pound.’

Again please note the ‘Full and Final settlement.’

For your reference I have included the following documents or (extracts from documents - to maintain my own privacy - any omissions are irrelevant to HFC - full copies of these documents can be made on request).

A Copy of Your Latter dated XXXXXX 2012
Certificate of Completion (Full Copy).
Accecptance of IVA (Full Copy)
Chairman’s Report dated XXXXXXXXX 2007 (Full Copy)

Finally, having researched a little I have found a ‘plain English’ definition of ‘Full and Final’ as follows : Full and final settlement" is a legal term used to mean that an offer of payment is made for the whole of amount owed and if accepted you will not be able to claim any additional sums in the future no matter what happens.

I feel then that this matches with my offer made during the IVA that should it be accepted that on completion of the Full and Final Payment and the IVA then no further claim to any monies owed can be made.

This coincides with the Full and Final Offer that HFC have made to me, that should I have accepted it then no further redress could be made by me.


If you require any further information, or documentation please feel free to contact me at the above address, or if convenient, via Telephone :

Yours faithfully,







Any opinions?

Cheers

Tommy

peterg04

HI Tomboy, I have had the same trouble but only with HFC, other banks have offered and after speaking to them agreed the IVA is closed and the PPI offered would be paid directly to me. On a note with HFC I have forwarded the complaint to the FOS, including evidence of the following, certificate of completion, open letter by the British Banks Association agreeing to the IVA protocol, the IVA protocol itself and highlighted section 6.2, a copy of the original creditors meeting highlighting HFC agreed shares and letters of communication between HFC and myself with a timeline, the only point I would add to your letter is that you will forward documents and complaint to FOS if they do not agree with your complaint, ie, there is not debt, regards Pete

Gimpsdad

I have taken this from a thread on iva.co.uk, and it comes directly from David Mond, IP, who is also chairman of the DRF and a founder member of the joint BBA/Insolvency Service IVA standing committee.

"If an asset or a contingent asset existed at any point from the outset of your IVA until the point of completion, then this would have to be included within the IVA and as such should, once it has been received, be paid for the benefit of your creditors regardless of when it is ultimately realised. Even if you have received your completion or termination documents and the IVA has concluded, then because of the principles of Trust law the asset belongs to the IVA creditors and still survives and as such, the funds would need to be paid directly to your former Supervisor.

A large proportion of creditors are currently paying compensation cheques directly to the Supervisor/former Supervisor but in any case, if the compensation was paid to you following the completion of your IVA, your Supervisor would still have a claim against these funds and if he or she were to find out then you could be liable to further action and potentially disastrous consequences.

Supervisors are able to pay reasonable costs in establishing and realising assets (costs of realisation) and a number of IPs are allowing from completed cases to keep a percentage of the claim as a gesture of goodwill in helping to increase the return to creditors. My suggestion is that if you feel you have potential PPI claims, then your first port of call should be to contact your former Supervisor who should be able to help you through the process."

In short, if you can get away with it then good luck, but if you kick up too much fuss then HFC could very well pay it to the IVA supervisor, so you won't see it anyway. I know of a few IP's at the moment who are of the opinion that if they find out that people are acting this way then they will bankrupt them.

Smacks a little of greed to me when people try to claim back money that they have already had written off, but that is only a personal opinion.

TomBoyNI

Thanks for the info guys. Peterg04 keep me updated on ow you get on and Gimpsdad thanks for that info too.

I also see your point about claiming money that was written off however HFC have sent the letter detailing the PPI. the reclaim only covs PPI that I actually paid whilst in the loan agreement. Therefore I am off the opinion that it was money I should never have been paying and surely the fact that the complaint has been upheld then HFC agree with this.

I am not trying to claim back anything I never paid, only what I did prior to the IVA.

TomBoyNI

Gimpsdad wrote: »

I know of a few IP's at the moment who are of the opinion that if they find out that people are acting this way then they will bankrupt them.

sorry for the double post but this is rather concerning. Is this even possible? I finished by IVA almost 2 years ago. Is it then possible that two years later the IP can bankrupt me over an IVA claim?

peterg04

Hi Tomboy, I spoke to one of the head staff that my IP has working for him and asked her how I stood with PPI and HFC and other banks, short answer, the IVA was completed apply for what you can we will not ask for any you have completed your agreement

peterg04

Hi Tomboy also see my thread "PPI after IVA to Offset account referred to FOS with evidence", hopefully will give you some hope regards

TomBoyNI

peterg04 wrote: »

Hi Tomboy also see my thread "PPI after IVA to Offset account referred to FOS with evidence", hopefully will give you some hope regards

Have you a link to that please?

And thanks

Gimpsdad

An IVA is an alternative to BR, and in BR any PPI belongs to the OR as it as an asset that existed pre BR. It is the same with IVA, the asset existed when the IVA was entered into. I have seen a few people successfully claim it back post IVA, but how long you can get away with it is open to debate.

It is not up to the FOS to rule on an asset position in regards to an Insolvency estate by all accounts, so complaining to them relies on ignorance within the FOS to uphold any claim, and ignorance on the part of a creditor to give in to it.

I repeat, if you can get away with it good luck, but you are running a big risk. It isn't beyond the realms of possibility that an IP will bankrupt someone post IVA, even if only to make an example of them and stop this nonsense once and for all.

I don't often side with creditors, but to ask them to write off debt, and then chase them for money that they have already written off smacks of pure greed and HFC have no need to give the OP any money back whatsoever, in fact, under the IVA protocol they should give it to the IP for fair distribution to the whole estate. I don't doubt that PPI was mis-sold in the vast majority of cases, but that isn't the issue, the issue is whether the money is owed post IVA, which it isn't.

peterg04

What rubbish, the whole reason PPI claims came about is because of Bank greed, we are only claiming that which would not have been included in the IVA had it not been added into the loans which I did not request as I worked in a very secure job and did not need insurance, the total of insurance costs on all my debts totalled about £200 per month, had this not been added I could have possibly managed and not entered into the IVA, so please dont quote greed when it has become clear this is why the banks are paying millions back to customers. Whether FOS agree or disagree I have had offers from three of my creditors with no questions asked and accepted that the IVA has been settled and realised, they are happy to pay direct to me and not my IP from the old IVA.