Have I committed a crime of moral turpitude? I'm not sure whether I need a US visa.?

Matt1979

2 1/2 years ago i borrowed a printer cartridge from the company i was working for at the time with the intention of replacing it when the ones i had ordered online arrived as they were delayed. I didnt get on with my boss at the time and when he found out he called the police, i pleaded guilty that i had taken it but did say that it was only borrowed as i had ones ordered to replace it with. my boss insisted i was charged and i ended up going to court where again i pleaded guilty but did explain i had every intention of replacing it as i have never been in trouble before not even a parking ticket i was given a fine of £300 as the judge did say even though it was a petty crime it was still a crime, i paid promptly and the matter was ended and to be honest i had forgotten about, Me and my boss didnt get on as at the time i was going through a messy divorce and had, had a lot of time off due to going to court with regards to custody of my children.

I have since moved and got a new girlfriend and im happily settled as a surprise my girlfriend had booked flights to Florida for august this year as her parents have a house there, i have since learned that i may not be covered under the ESTA application but can someone confirm this ?? or if i will need to get a visa from the embassy and if so what do i have to do and will i be granted one??

After doing some research with regards to a ESTA applications, wikipedia has a list of crimes involving Moral Turoitude and it says "Theft (when it involves the intention of permanent taking)" but as it was never my intention to permanent take the item where do i stand ??

Any help would be great and i thank you in advance

bungle4by4

sounds like you need to speak to the embassy mate, they will tell you what you need to do.

mcfisco

Moral Turoitude and it says "Theft (when it involves the intention of permanent taking)" but as it was never my intention to permanent take the item where do i stand ??

Regardless of your defence, you were convicted of theft and you therefore satisfy the Wikipedia's definition of moral turpitude
As above, speak to the embassy, you'll probably need to do an interview.

Basic definition of theft.

(1)A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; and “thief” and “steal” shall be construed accordingly.


(2)It is immaterial whether the appropriation is made with a view to gain, or is made for the thief’s own benefit.

shaun_from_Africa

After doing some research with regards to a ESTA applications, wikipedia has a list of crimes involving Moral Turoitude and it says "Theft (when it involves the intention of permanent taking)" but as it was never my intention to permanent take the item where do i stand ??

Ignore what wikipedia states as it is often wrong.
It might be okay for for some things, but certainly not checking your legal status for something such as travel to the USA.
This will give you the US government legal definition of a crime involving moral turpitude. (the guidance is for a visa application and not an ESTA, but I'm sure that it won't change between the two)
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86942.pdf

b. Other crimes committed against property involving moral turpitude involve an inherently evil intent, such as the act of arson. The following list comprises crimes frequently committed against property, which may be held to involve moral turpitude for the purposes of visa issuance:
(1) Arson;
(2) Blackmail;
(3) Burglary;
(4) Embezzlement;
(5) Extortion;
(6) False pretenses;
(7) Forgery;
(8) Fraud;
(9) Larceny (grand or petty);

There is also a clause that states that it is only the conviction that is relevant and not the reasons behind it (such as only intending to borrow the item in question.

The presence of moral turpitude is determined by the nature of the statutory offense for which the alien was convicted, and not by the acts underlying the conviction

sarah69696pink

Check it out properly as wikipedia not entirely always reliable. However you pleaded guilty to theft and as such were charged with theft, so the circumstances around it will not matter.
This is not to say however that you will not get an ESTA, I do not know enough about the process so make sure you check everything out and don't just go on hearsay.

Mr_Wang

Unless you've fiddled a kid, snuffed someone out or committed an act of terror you'll have no problem regardless of anything else.

Data prevention prevents the UK from sharing any other info with the US.

scottishperson2

Matt1979 wrote: »

i ended up going to court where again i pleaded guilty but did explain i had every intention of replacing it

You may well have said that, but if it doesn't appear in your memorandum of conviction its a mute point, and they've got you for a CiMT.

CiMT for theft means to Permanently Deprive, and if you borrowed the item with the intent to return if, it wouldn't fall into this category (hence Joyriding isn't a CiMT - although I would make it a capital offence).

However, the ONLY evidence of that would be in the Memorandum of Conviction, which is what the embassy look at, and if it isn't there you're stuffed.

See http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86942.pdf

There is a petty offense exception, See http://nortontooby.com/topics/petty_offense_exception

Under the Petty Offense Exception, a noncitizen is automatically not inadmissible, on account of a conviction or admission of a crime involving moral turpitude, if all three requirements are met:

s/he has committed only one crime involving moral turpitude; and

s/he “was not sentenced to a term of imprisonment in excess of six months (regardless of the extent to which the sentence was ultimately executed)”; and

the offense of conviction carries a maximum possible sentence of one year or less.

THE MAXIMUM POSSIBLE SENTENCE IS THE SENTENCE IN THE US, IN THIS CASE THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CODE.

There is also a juvenile exemption IF he was under 18 at the time.

However, although this would allow you to travel with a visa, it does NOT allow you to use the VWP.


Ignore Mr Wangs advice, as he hasn't a clue what hes talking about and even pointing him to the actually legislation won't even persuade him he is wrong. Data Protection Act actually allows data sharing, and the High value data sharing protocol exists to facilitate that sharing.

Voyager2002

Mr_Wang wrote: »

Unless you've fiddled a kid, snuffed someone out or committed an act of terror you'll have no problem regardless of anything else.

Data prevention prevents the UK from sharing any other info with the US.

Sadly that is not true: the HMRC site makes it clear that the USA and UK routinely exchange financial information about each other's citizens.

Anyway, the OP is stuffed because it would not be possible to get a US visa in time to travel in August. Personally, in his situation I would chance it (unless the air tickets are refundable but I am sure that the correct answer is that he does need a visa.

scottishperson2

It would depend on what the memorandum of conviction said, it is said that he did not intend to permanently deprive, he could state its not theft, if it didn't say that hes stuffed.

He needs to get down to the magistrates court, pays his money, and get a copy of the MOC.

bungle4by4 wrote: »

sounds like you need to speak to the embassy mate, they will tell you what you need to do.

You don't speak to the embassy, you speak to a call centre at a cost of £1.50 a minute. The ONLY answer they will give is "you need a visa", even if you were arrested for "mailing an obscene letter" or any of the other crimes you CAN travel freely on.

Mr_Wang

Voyager this is not aimed at you so please ignore.

Scottishperson2:
I have travelled to the US more times than I can remember, and believe me, I do know what I am talking about.

If the OP fails to declare his conviction then he will face no problem at border control.

I will happily bet him the cost of his flight ticket - Will you bet otherwise

scottishperson2

Mr_Wang wrote: »

Voyager this is not aimed at you so please ignore.

Scottishperson2:
I have travelled to the US more times than I can remember, and believe me, I do know what I am talking about.

If the OP fails to declare his conviction then he will face no problem at border control.

I will happily bet him the cost of his flight ticket - Will you bet otherwise

So even though you have travelled to the US "more times than you can remember" you still think its OK for people to commit immigration fraud.

Care also to point out what legislation prevents the UK from sharing data with the US.