Working Hours

getmore4less

The only legislation that protects workers pay is national minimum wage(NMW).

An employer can structure their pay in anyway they like as long as the average wage is over NMW.

There are rules for what is "work" so you need to look at those they vary for different types of jobs.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/TheNationalMinimumWage/DG_10037277


if your average is over NMW there is little you can do without negotiation.

Jimhum

Sambucus_Nigra wrote: »

We have to ask Jim - as with some of the people we get on here, it could be 'they expect me to get dressed, have my breakfast and travel to work before they start paying me'...

Personally, I work along the lines of 'once I'm through the door, and being paid by the business, I do work for the business. Until then, I don't do work for the business' - but I've not had a job like that in years and do lots of additional hours because I work for a charity and love it.

If they can't afford to pay you for the extra tasks, perhaps you should all stop going in early, attending meetings, staying late and suggesting they put the prices up to enable you all being paid for all the hours you do for the business. I don't think there is alot you can do unless you all do it together and negotiate being paid for the hours. Perhaps ALL of you need to join a union, and put a grievance in once you have all joined.

Thanks for the reply.

Luckily (or perhaps sadly) I don't think it's a case of not being able to afford to pay us, the company I am talking about is FTSE 100 sized, profitable etc. . Just wondering how it can be a fair deal to employ someone for x number of hours with full intention (documented in company procedures/documents etc) of employees completing business related tasks for a significantly higher number of hours per month.

Thanks for the replies from others about NMW. No worthwhile point in being made regarding the above? Contract for x hours, but company policies/procedures documenting mandatory activities outside these hours? If I were to consistently attend work for working hours only, and even just for five minutes either side (for example) I'd probably be looking at being on the way out.

Sambucus_Nigra

Jimhum wrote: »

Thanks for the reply.

Luckily (or perhaps sadly) I don't think it's a case of not being able to afford to pay us, the company I am talking about is FTSE 100 sized, profitable etc. . .

Yeah, I guessed that - I was being sarcastic on your behalf.

getmore4less

Jimhum wrote: »

Thanks for the replies from others about NMW. No worthwhile point in being made regarding the above? Contract for x hours, but company policies/procedures documenting mandatory activities outside these hours? If I were to consistently attend work for working hours only, and even just for five minutes either side (for example) I'd probably be looking at being on the way out.

DO the hours take you below NMW or not.

If they do you don't have to stop working them you get HMRC to investigate by reporting the breach, report another work place anonoumusly so they won't connect it to you.

As it is documented they can enforce back payments and fines company wide. there are also record keeping requirements

Evilm

Jimhum wrote: »

Thanks for the reply.

Luckily (or perhaps sadly) I don't think it's a case of not being able to afford to pay us, the company I am talking about is FTSE 100 sized, profitable etc. . Just wondering how it can be a fair deal to employ someone for x number of hours with full intention (documented in company procedures/documents etc) of employees completing business related tasks for a significantly higher number of hours per month.

No worthwhile point in being made regarding the above? Contract for x hours, but company policies/procedures documenting mandatory activities outside these hours? If I were to consistently attend work for working hours only, and even just for five minutes either side (for example) I'd probably be looking at being on the way out.

No, I don't think there is. The only protection is NMW. An employer can require you to do non-contracted hours in order to be 'ready' for work. In your case they are counting 'ready for work' as 'ready for customers'. They can even put in there 'extra hours when required' with no expectation of payment to be made to you unless NMW comes into play.

As for whether their expectations are reasonable or not the only way to prove that would be a tribunal due to someone being sacked for not coming in early to do those jobs. I don't even think that a constructive dismissal claim would be strong enough to test it.

Sambucus_Nigra

Jimhum wrote: »

If I were to consistently attend work for working hours only, and even just for five minutes either side (for example) I'd probably be looking at being on the way out.

Yes, hence saying

'If they can't afford to pay you for the extra tasks, perhaps you should all stop going in early, attending meetings, staying late and suggesting they put the prices up to enable you all being paid for all the hours you do for the business. I don't think there is alot you can do unless you all do it together and negotiate being paid for the hours. Perhaps ALL of you need to join a union, and put a grievance in once you have all joined.'


If you do it alone, you will be out on your ear I imagine - you have to do it as a team...

Notmyrealname

Jimhum wrote: »

Thanks for the reply.

Luckily (or perhaps sadly) I don't think it's a case of not being able to afford to pay us, the company I am talking about is FTSE 100 sized, profitable etc. . Just wondering how it can be a fair deal to employ someone for x number of hours with full intention (documented in company procedures/documents etc) of employees completing business related tasks for a significantly higher number of hours per month.

If you have been employed for more than a year, you could say that you find the situation unacceptable and that if there is not some monetary recompense, you are going to withdraw your goodwill and going to work to rule.

Working to rule means you only work the hours and do the duties that are stated in your contract - no more, no less. You cannot be sacked for working to rule. However I mentioned the one year because you can be dismissed without reason under it so working to rule if you've been employed less than a year (2 if starting from April 2012) then you may find yourself out on your ear.

spamhater

I used to be a branch manager for a well known (now government owned) UK bank. Our opening time was 9.15 and staff were (in those days) on Monday to Friday 9.5 contracts.

However there was not enough time between 9 and 9.15 to get your cash out, load up ATM's if required and attend the daily sales huddle so staff were expected to start earlier and be in a position where they were ready to serve the public as soon as the doors opened. If they weren't ready (mainly those who came in at 9am) the branch managers were expected to record this against them in appraisals etc. The same happened at the end of the day as 99% of the time there was no way we could go home at 5pm.

Over the years hundreds of staff approached the unions about this and got nowhere as the Union were unwilling to take it up on anyone's behalf which makes me think that in court the bank would have got away with it.

It stinks as it's continual unpaid work going into the coffers of a multi million pound company but it's pretty much standard practice in some industries (or at least it was and I can't imagine it will have improved any since I escaped!)

bap98189

spamhater wrote: »

Over the years hundreds of staff approached the unions about this and got nowhere as the Union were unwilling to take it up on anyone's behalf which makes me think that in court the bank would have got away with it.

It would have nothing to do with any court. It's a labour dispute which would have to be negotiated out between the union and the bank.

Notmyrealname

spamhater wrote: »

I used to be a branch manager for a well known (now government owned) UK bank. Our opening time was 9.15 and staff were (in those days) on Monday to Friday 9.5 contracts.

However there was not enough time between 9 and 9.15 to get your cash out, load up ATM's if required and attend the daily sales huddle so staff were expected to start earlier and be in a position where they were ready to serve the public as soon as the doors opened. If they weren't ready (mainly those who came in at 9am) the branch managers were expected to record this against them in appraisals etc. The same happened at the end of the day as 99% of the time there was no way we could go home at 5pm.

I'd have just gone home and let the manager have the problem of sorting it out.

In my former career you were limited to a 13hr duty period. That wasn't 13hrs plus doing paperwork when you finished. If you were found doing that by VOSA you could expect your day in court.