Care Home Fees - Wilful Deprivation of Capital

clemmatis

margaretclare wrote: »

To the last 3 posters, read what the OP wrote.

Miss MoneyPenny and I weren't attacking the OP. Miss MoneyPenny quoted the OP approvingly. I suggest you can assume she read what the OP wrote...

OP, the house may well be exempt. I suggest you ask Age Concern.

joandkaz1

i cant quite believe a person on that kind of income and with over 70k in savings plus property would expect free care or even help with the care costs. theres oaps that are freezing to death for heavens sake. we dont have half that amount a month and we are a family with 2 small children. Its shocking to me. Dont get me wrong, i can see the OP knows that its not right but the situation just makes me so angry

clemmatis

joandkaz1 wrote: »

i cant quite believe a person on that kind of income and with over 70k in savings plus property would expect free care or even help with the care costs. theres oaps that are freezing to death for heavens sake. we dont have half that amount a month and we are a family with 2 small children. Its shocking to me. Dont get me wrong, i can see the OP knows that its not right but the situation just makes me so angry

First, the OP's father doesn't expect free care. He currently pays 80% of his care costs. He should though probably be paying 100%. He probably will after he does as the OP wishes, and declares the savings.

(OP, your father's economic circumstances are almost identical to mine, except that my house is subsidence-ridden!)

Second, the OP's father may qualify for NHS Continuing Care, which is free.

Katykat

To all the posters who protest at "the taxpayer" having to pay for care when a person goes into a home let me just quote a few examples.
A baby with a congenital heart defect gets its care paid by the NHS. A teenager involved in a motorbike accident- NHS. A pregnant woman giving birth- NHS. A middled aged alcoholic with liver damage- NHS. A foreign tourist with a broken arm -NHS. An elderly man with a stroke and vascular dementia has to pay himself. Where is the fairness in that?
To Joannkaz, if one of your children was poorly and needed care, either short or long term, how would you feel if you were expected to pay for that care? The Nhs was created to look after EVERYONE from the cradle to the grave, NOT from the cradle to the point where you need it the most ie when you are ill, and vulnerable and do not have the capacity to fight it.
I'm actually shocked that there are people who think that the sick, elderly people should be THE ONLY citizens who should pay for health care (AND THIS INCLUDES THE GOVERNMENT)
Sorry, rant over, but my point is still clear Redmen, your father is ill and incapacitated both physically and mentally. He should recieve NHS care, free.

joandkaz1

If i had the kind of money to pay for the care i would ...as this man obviously does i dont understand what you are gettin at. Benefits are for those that need them- or should be.

joandkaz1

and i agree-medical care should be free.i.e hospital treatments, medicines and doctors. care homes cannot be considered as such. Bed, board and hygeine oes beyond what is free on the NHS to anyone who isnt in hospital.

Cranny44

Hi

I think the local council may backbill him for his home care charges as hes only paid 80% when he should have paid 100%. Our local council would certainly try to do this as signing the finance form states you are declaring all income and savings. However if his savings are in life assured bonds this capital may be disregarded in full and only the income counted from this.

I am amazed that he had only come out as paying 80% as based on his income we would certainly charge him 100% in my area based on income alone, so not sure if he has ever fully disclosed his income as well.

As for residential care home fees the £2100 per month income would certainly cover most of the homes in my area good and bad - and having been in many homes with my job the ones that cost the most arent always the best ones. And as his partner and carer is still in the home we would disregard this until the partner left the property.

If dad hasnt got capacity then how can he give away capital?

If dad meets the criteria then he would get the NHS nursing care element paid this is often confused with being fully Health Funded. NHS nursing care funding is the nursing care element of the nursing home charges that is paid by the NHS the rest is paid by the client and council if assessed to do so. Health Funding is when a client has their entire stay paid for by the NHS due to meeting a specific health needs criteria.

And if you are in a res home i dont think it should be all free :eek: as the basic cost also included food, heating, electric, gas, laundry services, etc and no-one lives for free.

AgeUk website also have some very good factsheets written in plain english.

joandkaz1

What doesnt sit right with me is the fact that the man wanted to receive help so his kids could inherit his wealth. I think this is pretty disgusting I really do. If you want that to happen then maybe the children could keep the gentleman at home and look after him like generations before have. At least then he wouldnt lose his income or savings.

redmen1892

All,

Thanks to those who have taken the time to reply, I knew that it would provoke an interesting argument, as I stated before I'm firmly in the camp that believes if you can pay you should pay, that are others out there who have nothing that will require the state to assist them, regardless of age and condition.

I already have an IFA looking at this for me, his first response is that before he can do anything with a care annuity he needs my dad to declare his ISA savings, I also have a friend who is a solicitor she is going to see if there is anyone qualified in her practice that can assist us.

@JoandKaz1, both myself and my brother would love nothing better for my dad not to go into a home, however, we both live hundreds of miles away from him and I'm not sure it would be the best thing for him care wise and emotionally if we were to try and pursue this route, believe me, we've discussed it until the cows come home, and even my dad doesn't want to go down that route, but he maybe just saying that so as not to appear to be putting a burden on us, its a difficult decision that we have had to make and not one we make lightly, hopefully if he can get some of his mobility back he may be able to return home after a while but until he does then his partner is not able to look after him.

bigaunty, pollycat, clemmatis - Many thanks for the heads-up on the various organisations out there, prior to posting I had already downloaded over 30 odd fact sheets from the various websites, but what i now feel compelled to do is talk to Age UK directly.

KaytKat - I hear what you are saying but I don't know where the line of demarcation is between social care and nursing care, yes, he is ill as per the diagnoses of VD and he has mobility issues as a result of the strokes but is that enough to warrant nursing care, I don't know?, perhaps if his VD gets worst, he's only just been diagnosed with it and his facilities are all still in tact, sometimes he forgets things or repeats things to us, maybe as his condition gets worst his needs shift from a care need to a nursing need, but I would of thought, and this maybe me being naive that between the Medical team that treated him in hospital and the LA social care team they should of told us that he needs more specialist types of care, but you are right in that I need to go away and get myself clued up so that I am fully aware of all the facts and not just taking as gospel what I'm being told by the medical teams and LA.

many thanks again

best wishes jon

LisaW123

Katykat wrote: »

You need to start applying for Continuing Care for him. Its a whole new area and you need to study it intensly. There is a great thread on this forum about it and also a dedicated forum called Freenursingcare. After all, your father is ill, he has not just decided to book himself into care, in fact he probably doesn't want to go. Why should he have to pay for what should be his entitlement ie free NHS care?
The other thing is, dont just assume that the house will be disregarded. He isn't married and partners do not have the same entitlements as married couples.

The original poster said his father was likely to be admitted to residential care. Continuing Care is only available for those with complex medical needs. Such individuals would not be placed in residential care. The OP's father is clearly highly capable in some respects. He is still very able to plot to defraud the authorities, despite the OP's obvious objections to this. Another factor which renders it unlikely his father would qualify.

The fact is that this man has hidden assets. If the OP's father is continuing to refuse to 'come clean' now, I would be tempted to inform the authorities myself. After all, it is the OP and any siblings who will be left to sort out this mess in the end. I would certainly not help the father to complete any documentation that contained fraudulent information.

The LA should be given all the facts. The OP and/or his father, could say something about him getting confused previously and thinking that, as ISA's weren't taken into account for tax purposes, they weren't taken into account for other forms of financial assessment. I very much doubt the LA will prosecute, but it is likely they will claim back charges for any services they have provided that the OP's father should have paid for himself.

With regard to the house, the LA cannot force a sale if a partner continues to reside in the property.