Care Home Fees - Wilful Deprivation of Capital

redmen1892

hello all,

A bit of background information before I get down to the grunt of the matter.

My father (70 YO) suffered a major stroke 5 years ago, which has left him unable to walk and permanently in a wheelchair, limited mobility and partially blind. His Partner has been caring for him since the stroke and they also have carers attending him twice a day, 7 days a week, to which he pays the majority of the care bill, he is also in receipt of the higher rates of DLA (Care and Mobility). Recently he has been in further ill health and has now been diagnosed with Vascular dementia, after several meetings with the social care teams and the medical staff it is looking increasingly likely that when he gets discharged from hospital he will have to go into residential care.

He joint owns the property with his partner, they are not married, so I think its safe to say that the property will be dis-regarded from any assessment, he has private pensions and a state pension income of approx. 2100 PCM, he also has approx. £72000k in ISA Savings accounts.

The problem as I have just found out is that he has never declared the ISA savings accounts in the past when having assessments for his carers, and now that he will need to go into care I want him to declare his entire capital assets, which will mean that he has to self fund as he has far in excess of £23,250 of assets, however, he is reluctant to do so because he wants to gift this money to myself, my brother and the Grandchildren, but as I have explained to him he is in effect committing a form of benefit fraud if he continues to do so, and I am certain that all the LA need do is check up with the HMRC and they will know that he has more than he is letting onto.

because he has a substantial income from his pensions and benefits it is likely that when he is assessed that he will have the pay the majority of the care home fees anyway, as he does with his home care fees, I think he pays approx. 80% of the fees anyway, so I don't think that he is any better off trying to hide the money away as he would have to use it anyway to pay the care home fees, so at a rough guess that will last no more than 3 years not factoring any increases.

He has now asked me to help him with the assessment, I have told him only if he comes clean, he is now worried that they might prosecute him for fraud or at very least make him pay back some of the money that the LA will have spent on his home care fees.

At least if he comes clean I can start to look at getting him a care annuity set-up so that he can stay in the home of his choice and not worry about the capital running dry or the LA finding out.

Does any one have any advice on whether the LA would prosecute or make him pay back some of the fees already spent over the last 5 years.

I think its a given that he must come clean, after all its people like me and you who have to pay the bill via our taxes, needless to say I'm not happy with him.

many thanks

J

dseventy

redmen1892 wrote: »

.... he also has approx. £72000k in ISA Savings accounts....

.... he has never declared the ISA savings accounts in the past ...

Does any one have any advice on whether the LA would prosecute or make him pay back some of the fees already spent over the last 5 years.

I really hope they do, but I can't see them sending a 70 YO stroke sufferer to jail.

Can I respectifully suggest that you use some of the 72K to get some solicitors advice?

By not declaring the money he has committed fraud, this was not required as as there are ways to ensure he gets the care required AND pass on some money from his estate. Actually by hiding the money and trying to pass it down, all he has created is a mess for his children when it all could have been avoided by a bit of planning and being honest. If you are able to communicate this to him, it might help. I too am surprised that HMRC have not used data matching to see savings.

I also think you are in a world of pain for the property. I would not assume this will not come into the picture and again say to get some advice.

Shelter are a great help, (I am sure others will suggest it), plus the DLA is non-means tested.

Either way I suggest getting some legal advice for your dad, paying for it so its customised to your circs.

D70

cattie

I think you will find that they are quite used to elderly people not declaring all of their income or assets, as it is quite common for them to hold back on savings they have.

If it hadn't come to light now, it probably would have been picked up by the solicitor when the time comes to administer his estate and solicitor would arrange for any necessary monies to be repaid.

There is a strong possibility that he will have to payback anything he wasn't entitled to, but I'd put the worry about prosecution out of your mind.

Katykat

Redmen, your father has what could be classed as a high income. Unfotunately even £2100 pm is not enough to cover care home fees so he will still need to use his savings. Technically, DLA is not means tested but is still included as income and will be expected to be used to help pay for care, which is just what it is intended for.
You need to start applying for Continuing Care for him. Its a whole new area and you need to study it intensly. There is a great thread on this forum about it and also a dedicated forum called Freenursingcare. After all, your father is ill, he has not just decided to book himself into care, in fact he probably doesn't want to go. Why should he have to pay for what should be his entitlement ie free NHS care?
The other thing is, dont just assume that the house will be disregarded. He isn't married and partners do not have the same entitlements as married couples.

BigAunty

Elder charities like Age UK usually have good information on deprivation of capital and care home funding. Shelter has good info on housing and tenants rights but is not really a benefits advice specialist.

Some people don't realise that all capital is included in means tested benefits and think it just means savings rather than other investments,( although of course, other people prefer to conceal their assets and capital in the hope they aren't discovered).

For means/income tested benefits, marriage to a partner is irrelevant. Partner's income is always included in the calculations- they are still treated as if they live together as man and wife, treated as household rather than individual fees. How this principle stands with care home costs and their shared property, care and care home fees, I don't know but Age UK probably will.

Pollycat

Redman
The thread that Katykat refers to (CHC) is on the 'Over 50's' board - which is probably a better place for your type of query than the Benefits one.

Here's the thread - it's a long one:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/800521

From what I've read, it's very difficult to get PCTs to agree to fund care.
It also seems to vary depending on which part of the country you live in.

I found this website very useful when my Dad went into care:
http://www.counselandcare.org.uk/advice-and-information

THey do lots of factsheets & guides, you can download them or you can ring up and they'll send the ones you want.
There's one on 'Deprivation of Capital' (under 'Financial) and lots of relevant ones under 'Finding and paying for a care home' - including one about CHC - Continuing Health Care.

Good luck.

rogerblack

BigAunty wrote: »

For means/income tested benefits, marriage to a partner is irrelevant. Partner's income is always included in the calculations- they are still treated as if they live together as man and wife, treated as household rather than individual fees.

The means-tested benefits I've looked at (specifically ESA, JSA) use the concept of 'living together as husband and wife'.
The actual bald fact of marriage or civil partnership is irrelevant.

There are two legal tests.
You must be 'living as husband and wife' - and you must be 'living together sharing a household'.

One or the other is not adequate to meet the criteria, both must apply.

The 'household' is somewhat complex - for example - it's possible for two houses to be treated as one household - if for example you have nearby houses, and use them as one.

The 'living as husband and wife' test is also complex - a number of factors are taken into account - marriage/civil partnership, time spent together, children, state of the relationship, ...

If, for example, you are married to someone, and maintain two completely separate houses, to which the other does not have the key, keep no possessions in the others house, share no finances, and spend the vast majority of your time (alone) in your own house - you would not be 'living together as husband and wife' for the purposes of JSA or ESA.

(Please note, this is my understanding after reading the relevant guidance by the DWP - the consequences of this being got wrong may be serious, if you are in a borderline case, you may want to get some actual legal advice from someone with a professional understanding of the rules that works in the field)

MissMoneypenny

redmen1892 wrote: »

At least if he comes clean I can start to look at getting him a care annuity set-up so that he can stay in the home of his choice

That's the big thing; home of his choice.

Having spent some time looking at homes for my mother the other year, I found the basic care given by the state, was nowhere near as good as the privately paid nursing homes.

I can never understand why a child would want their parent to sign over their house and let their parent/s lose the choice of the best home they can get, at a time in their life when they need their money to pay for the best they can get.

clemmatis

I agree with Miss MoneyPenny.

Glen_Clark

Katykat wrote: »

Why should he have to pay for what should be his entitlement ie free NHS care?

Why should poor taxpayers pay for his care, so his descendants can inherit something they did not earn?

margaretclare

To the last 3 posters, read what the OP wrote. It's Dad who wants to avoid spending, to leave money to his descendants. It's not the OP, who is unhappy about what Dad wants!

E.g. "I think its a given that he must come clean, after all its people like me and you who have to pay the bill via our taxes, needless to say I'm not happy with him." from post #1.