Tenants in common help needed!

dandandan81

Afternoon all, my first post on here in quite some time, hopefully I can convey the situation I find myself in as clearly as possible. Would be great to hear any advice or tips on what to do!

Currently own a house as tenants in common with two other family members. The share is not an equal % between the parties and the mortgage repayments reflect this.

One member of the group has chosen to move out and live with a partner. The mortgage for the house still has 15 years to run, with the fixed term rate due to expire in a few months. We would drop down to a tracker rate in the autumn of this year.

The individual who has moved out has categorically stated they want the house sold or their share bought out when the fixed rate of the mortgage has expired. There is no written agreement for this to occur.

The individual who has moved out has chosen to pay into the mortgage account via cash only and is underpaying their share of the house (once insurances and council tax has been added, they are just covering their share of purely the mortgage) in addition they enter the house when I am out at work and have taken a number of possessions including a jointly owned games console system. They have damaged the fabric of the house by removing the TV (owned and paid for by them) the wall is now damaged and requires repair.

They have also attempted to find documents on the ownership of the house by damaging locked drawers. The documents are available for them to view but I do not want the originals to leave the house, I have stated they can have a copy, this has not been accepted.

My questions are this
1) can the individual force a sale of the house?
2) what happens if the individual fails to pay their share of the mortgage?
3) what happens if the individual declares bankruptcy? They are self employed and I am seeing a number of documents coming to the house for JSA
4) are they entitled to take possessions (such as the jointly owned games console?)
5) who is responsible for the damage to the house where the TV was removed from the wall?
6) in terms of buying the individual out, do I have to offer a value that matches their overall % ownership of the house, or am I able to offer an alternative amount (the deeds state an 'agreed' amount between the parties can be used)
7) if the house moves onto the tracker mortgage the individual is still responsible for their share, what if they refuse or pay under the amount and not their insurances?

Thank you in advance, the threats of legal and financial action being made against me is deeply unpleasant, just looking for some clarity and if anyone else has gone through this

Thanks

McKneff

You really need legal help to be honest, it's too much of a minefield to get any meaningful help on here.

Most solicitors give a half hour free session these days.

Emmzi

given the drop in house values is there actually any equity worth fighting over?

could you put a lodger into the spare room to cover the rent?

dandandan81

Thank you for the replies, with regard to the equity in the house there is a reasonable sum yes. The individual who has moved out is in a situation where they absolutely need money and wish to be free of the monthly contributions to this mortgage.

I definitely am seeking legal advice, am I asking the right questions though? As for a minefield....tell me about it

Beckyy

Then they should have thought about that before jointly purcahsing a house with others. They can't expect to have out when it's convenient for them.

Do you want to/are you able to buy them out yourself or jointly with the 3rd owner? That amount will depend on lots of factors.

I would definitely seek some legal advice, I think you need it.
Best of luck.

BitterAndTwisted

dandandan81 wrote: »

The individual who has moved out has chosen to pay into the mortgage account via cash only and is underpaying their share of the house (once insurances and council tax has been added, they are just covering their share of purely the mortgage)
Of course, they should be paying their share of all of the expenses, so should be making a fair contribution to the insurance but if they are registered as living elsewhere and paying council tax there, it would not be fair to expect them to pay CT on two properties. That they are receiving JSA documentation to the house suggests otherwise.

In addition they enter the house when I am out at work and have taken a number of possessions including a jointly owned games console system. They have damaged the fabric of the house by removing the TV (owned and paid for by them) the wall is now damaged and requires repair.

They have also attempted to find documents on the ownership of the house by damaging locked drawers. The documents are available for them to view but I do not want the originals to leave the house, I have stated they can have a copy, this has not been accepted.

So get them out of the house and stored somewhere else safely.

My questions are this
1) can the individual force a sale of the house?

Yes, they can but they would have to go to court to achieve this. A person who is applying for JSA may not be able to afford that. As they are stiffing you on the insurance and CT suggests that they won't have the funds.


2) what happens if the individual fails to pay their share of the mortgage?

The two other people who took out the mortgage would have to cover it or go into arrears.

3) what happens if the individual declares bankruptcy? They are self employed and I am seeing a number of documents coming to the house for JSA

Dunno but it doesn't sound like good news.


4) are they entitled to take possessions (such as the jointly owned games console?)

Entitled? No, but proving that they are not theirs to take is the hard part.

5) who is responsible for the damage to the house where the TV was removed from the wall?

The person who caused the damage of course! Actually, this sounds like a minor detail which I would be reluctant to make a big deal out of. It sound like you've got much bigger fish to fry right now.

6) in terms of buying the individual out, do I have to offer a value that matches their overall % ownership of the house, or am I able to offer an alternative amount (the deeds state an 'agreed' amount between the parties can be used)

The most fair and equitable route is for them to get their own independent valuation and you plus the other party to get yours. And then possibly meet in the middle.


7) If the house moves onto the tracker mortgage the individual is still responsible for their share, what if they refuse or pay under the amount and not their insurances?

Dunno, but it sounds like the two of you who continue to live in the property would have to take up the slack. This doesn't sound like individual tenancies where you are solely responsible for your own payments and no-one else's.

Thank you in advance, the threats of legal and financial action being made against me is deeply unpleasant, just looking for some clarity and if anyone else has gone through this

Thanks

Desperate people often do desperate things, even to their nearest and dearest. One only has to have a read of the "Lending Money to Friends and Family" thread on the loans part (I think) of the forum to see how utterly disgracefully some behave towards others who are supposed to be dear to them.

It seems to me that the two of you have rather more power over this person than you may think. Negotiations could be undertaken to persuade this person to relinquish a certain part of their original share in order to extricate themselves from the responsibilities of ownership.

How good are you two at playing poker? Meanwhile I'd be having a hard think about changing the locks to prevent access even though doing that isn't strictly legal but they may not have the money to formally challenge you about it. Is it likely that they would try and break in and cause even more damage? The cost of rectifying you could then choose to deduct from the share you might be buying from them

dandandan81

Once again, the replies are very much appreciated and certainly extremely helpful!
With regard to a few things, the individual who has moved out is still listed at this residence and therefore only pays council tax at one place (i.e. this home with us the other tenants in common)

I also would assume finances are challenging for the individual, hence I wondered if I were able to offer a sum of money to buy them out of their % of the house.

Annoys me that the games console can just be taken, i know its a minor thing but just feels like it has been stolen.

The changing of the locks, if it did happen would the police be called? I would rather not have them at the door if possible!

As for the poker playing aspect that is a great analogy, just a game all of this, which is upsetting when a few years ago the tenants in common deal was agreed to help each other out.

Cheers again!

BitterAndTwisted

Yep, the police might be called but I suspect when they get to the front door and find out why they've been called out they will say that "it's a civil matter" like they often do. It's at that point the person locked out could decide to force entry. They co-own the property so have an absolute right to enter.

Offering a sum of money to buy them out of their % of the house could work if you can afford it. I would suggest getting shot of them by raising a new mortgage between the two of you just to keep thing straightforward and equal. And having the two separate valuations to base it on for the removal of doubt. After ten years of ownership one hopes that you have a substantial amount of equity between you. Just keep all of your negotiations clear and unambiguous to prevent any possibility of accusations of unfair advantage later.

dandandan81

6 months on and I feel its time to update this post!
Things have unfortunately gotten worse. The individual involved has now stopped paying the mortgage, council tax and all other bills. This has increased the financial pressure on myself significantly and the third member of the TIC.
We have offered to have the house put up for sale, but the individual has refused stating he wants his estate agent (mate) to sell it, at a low price to shift it quickly. We refused this point blank, I may have even said a few choice words...We tried to proceed with getting a fair price fro a range of estate agents, we told the individual about this and left him the paperwork to sign to agree to the sale. He has taken this, kept it and now claims no knowledge of any paperwork

He has also stated to another member of the family that he has stopped paying the mortgage as he 'doesnt know what he is paying for or will get out of it' despite trust deeds clearly stating his share of the sale.

We are still looking to sell. Found an online estate agent at a much more reasonable price, my questions are

a) Can we go ahead with putting the house on the market regardless of what he has/ has not signed. If we get to the buyer stage we will need his signature of course
b) should we contact him to advise of this in a nice way and then go down the legal road including to force the sale?
c) Is there any way of claiming back the mortgage he has not paid including council tax etc My estimates would put this somewhere in the region of £4000+. Could this be taken from his final payout of the house?

Heartbreaking, annoying, angry. Every emotion. Dont even want to sell the house but I cant afford other options such as raising the capital to buy him out, remortgaging isnt an option due to higher %APR and my mum having a short amount of time mortgage lenders will lend for and we both refuse point blank to continue paying his % of the mortgage so he might enjoy the house when he is older but not have contributed anything. My life is so stuck right now
Family....brilliant.

Fire_Fox

Have you taken legal advice as suggested many months ago? What did your solicitor say?

There is the 'hierachy of liability' for council tax - as soon as your relative moved out he was not longer legally liable for council tax and his name should have been removed from the bill. They would also not be responsible for utility bills from the day they moved out, the meters should have been read and their name removed from those bills too.

You can refuse to agree to the sale until your relative has agreed for the money owed for mortgage and buildings insurance to come out of the sale. He is then stuck with a mortgage on a house he does not live in so cannot get another. Alternatively you may be able to take out a small claims action for the money owed, get a CCJ which will trash his credit rating, a charge against the property or an attachment of earnings. With all of these you are playing the long game to get your money but he can't get his money and he is the one wanting to sell more than you.

Why can't you let one of the rooms to a lodger? The income is tax free up to about £4K a year and this could help pay the mortgage and bills. TBH you are cutting off your nose to spite your face moving out and refusing to pay the full mortgage, it will cost you far more in estate agent and legal fees to sell. Your relative will not benefit for a few years because property prices are not increasing significantly. The interest you pay on the mortgage is very much like paying rent for a roof over your head - your relative is not benefiting from that.

Richard_Webster

a) Can we go ahead with putting the house on the market regardless of what he has/ has not signed. If we get to the buyer stage we will need his signature of course
b) should we contact him to advise of this in a nice way and then go down the legal road including to force the sale?

Yes you can put it on the market but he doesn't need to sign and by the time you take him to court the buyers will have long since walked away. Would you buy a property is you sensed that the sellers didn't all agree?

So in practical terms forget that if you want to arrive at a negotiated settlement. He will sign if he gets what he wants or can be persuaded that won't get any more.

You have to balance the cost of going to court - generally several £thousands against paying him more than you want to.