Getting a puppy - how to avoid a puppy farm.

live'n'learn

Hi,

i have been asking some questions elsewhere on this forum before realising there was another section about pets.

I am looking to buy a shih tzu puppy and i have the chance to look at one this weekend but i have no experience of knowing if the seller is part of a puppy farm or not so here is what i have so far.

I saw an advert in local paper and texted the owner, the puppies have been wormed and vet checked but no vaccinations so far. They are happy for me to get the puppy from their home and also i can see the puppies with their mother. The puppies are not KC registered hence the price of the female is £250.

Does this sound ok or should i be worried?

Caroline_a

If they aren"T KC registered I would ask why. Usually this means a back street breeder, no health checks done, in fact everything done on the cheap! Proper breeders rarely make much money out of it, and do it to improve the breed, which means KC registration. They will have chosen a stud carefully, more often than not paid a lot for his service, fed extra food, vet visits, etc.

A dog without a KC registration is on a par with a crossbreed, and certainly not worth £250!!

Contact the breed society to get a list of recommended breeders if you want a pedigree pup, alternatively go to one os the many rescue centres and find yourself a pup who really needs a home!

krlyr

As Caroline mentions, as well as puppy farms you get "back yard breeders". This is a term for people who breed, not in mass like a puppyfarm, but without the due diligence that a reputable breeder does.
This may include a lack of health tests in the parents - meaning the puppies may inherit health conditions or be more prone to issues that could have been avoided by using a different stud dog/b1tch.
They may overbreed their dogs - if they seem to have litters without much time between them, they may not be giving the b1tch enough time to rest and the puppies of future litters may suffer from a lack of vital nutrients in the womb or as they grow.
The puppies may also suffer behavioural issues if the breeder does not do all the necessary groundwork to socialise them. Socialising isn't just about letting them meet other dogs - but they need to experience as many new situations and sensations as young as possible to become well-balanced adults without fears. From the surfaces they walk on - puppies raised in a shed, for example, may struggle to adapt to living in a home as they're not used to carpet, soft furnishings, etc., or a litter raised solely indoors (e.g. in a flat) may not 'get' toilet training as quickly as they've not grown up using grass as a toilet. To seeing different vehicles - they may be used to going in a car, perhaps, but be fearful of large lorries because they've never seen one before, or want to chase cyclists because they haven't been desensitized to them. Puppies learn so much in the few weeks before they go to their new home, it is vital that the breeder knows what they're doing.

If you're not planning to show the dog then you may feel the KC registration isn't needed - but bear in mind that if a litter is KC registered, it gives you an official way to trace it. I believe you can look up the parents on the KC websites and check what healthtests have been done and what their results were. A breeder who is involved in showing also is more likely to breed puppies that meet the breed standards - in most cases this will make it more likely to be a healthier dog with the right proportions (I say mostly - many would argue that some breeds aren't, e.g. Pugs, Bulldogs, etc)

This may help, some relates to Boxers but it's still relevant.
http://www.boxermap.com/reputablebreeder.html

Chances are, you're not likely to find many reputable breeders looking in the local papers. Get on the KC website - a KC registered breeder isn't automatically a good one but it's a formal body that they can be reported to, so it can be a good starting point. If you have a particular breed in mind, get to dog shows and speak to owners of the breed - find out where they got their dog from and if they'd recommend that breeder. Speak to breeders - reputation is built on experience over time, and you will soon hear about those with a bad reputation.

If you are open to the idea of a rescue pup, there are rescues that specifically deal with certain breeds. You'll find some Shih Tzu rescues listed here. http://www.dogpages.org.uk/breeds1.htm
Chances are, the majority of dogs in rescues have come from puppyfarms or backyard breeders, or the odd accidental litter, so you may not avoid the health or behavioural problems with this route - but the point is, you're avoiding funding these bad practices and helping out a dog in need. You may find a rescue that's tkaen on a pregnant Shih Tzu and needs to rehome the impending pups - so chances are they'll be well-socialised, at least.

Good luck in your hunt and I hope you manage to find a happy, healthy pup

rising_from_the_ashes

Do you want a pup from a reputable breeder?

If so, most have waiting lists for future litters and they will have as many questions for you, as you have for them - and would certainly not just let you pay your money and take the pup without vetting you first - and I honestly can't see any of them advertising in a local paper.

Of course, if it's a "normal" person, having a litter, then they may well advertise in the paper - but again, most people should have questions for you.

I'd be wary tbh - as I have heard of puppy farm b*i*t*c*h*e*s being placed in a home with the pups when the pups are ready to leave to fool people into thinking it's a family dog.

Certainly make sure you see the mum and all the pups (to establish general health) and you should hopefully be able to tell a lot about the mum from her general attitude (is she comfortable around people, does she look like she's healthy / well cared for etc).

Even a "normal" person having a litter should ensure their dog (both mother and father) have had all the required health checks and I'd certainly want to see evidence of this.

If I was looking for a pup, I'd be doing my research into specific breeders I was looking to get a dog from.

I'd probably start off looking at a site such as this http://www.champdogs.co.uk/breeds/shih-tzu/breeders and then doing more research on individual breeders from there (most will have websites) - details of the health checks (which you can ask for proof of) and their registrations etc are provided.

kaya

health checks arent worth the paper they are written on , my mum bred and showed for many years, she is now retired and decided to go buy herself two cavalier king charles dogs purely as pets , both the parents were registered with the K/C , she viewed all the pups with the parents etc.etc. , researched the breed on the internet and found out about common and inherited diseases and ensured all the bloodline had been screened correctly, she now has a sick little puppy with (excuse the spelling here please) syringomyalgia!! KC registration proves nothing whatsoever , and screening doesnt count for much either, my mum is very experienced and knows what she is doing, what is important is that you visit the pups in their home with their siblings and a parent, many breeders will put their dog to stud and take pick of the litter as payment so its not uncommon to find the seller has the sire and one pup only , but if there is no parent dog there you should ask why , you can use your own common sense and good judgement to decide if they have the dogs best interests at heart or the lining of their pockets

krlyr

Health "checks" aren't even generally written on paper - just a brief exam and an OK from a vet. Infact, a breeder could "health check" their own puppies if they wanted. Health tests, however, do have a place I think. They don't guarantee a healthy puppy, and in your mum's case it's very unfortunate, but I don't think it makes health testing or KC registration redundant. I think it just goes to show that these are living, breathing animals and we can't predict everything - but that we can only try our best. To ditch health tests, screening, a formal registration, etc. would only make problems like syringomyalgia crop up even more because there would be no way of keeping tabs on it. I hope that the breeder your mum bought her puppy was made aware and takes it into serious consideration when deciding whether to breed from that lineage again. However, as said, even the KC registration doesn't filter out all the bad breeders, but at least they have some formal body you can report them to if you feel they are a bad breeder.
As RFTA has said, puppyfarms etc. are cottoning on to the fact that new owners are doing a little research and will often have a stooge mum to give the appearance of a home-bred litter, so the presence of a "parent" wouldn't be a foolproof test to me.

Kinski

I agree with what the others are saying. I would always check out the breed club http://www.theshihtzuclub.co.uk/index.php
I know you say that the dog isn't KC registered but unfortunately even if it was it means nothing the KC do register litters from Puppy factories ( farm sound like it's a place where dogs are running about fields ), you could check Puppy Love out for more information http://www.puppylovecampaigns.org/. My Bichon was a breeding bltch in one of these hell holes and she has numerous behaviour problems.

Digbysmum

I foster for a dog rescue and we regularly get shih tzus handed in by owners for various reasons. Of course we see many examples of dogs from puppy farm/ back street breeders but also we have many dogs handed from family homes where due to changes in circumstances the owners may need to re-home their pets.

It is a good idea to spend some time researching dog rescues as many of the dogs have lived in 'foster homes' where their behaviour has been observed and this information is then available to any prospective new owners.

I have had a couple of lovely 2 year old shih tzu's staying with me recently who were house trained and had lovely personalities- I was so tempted to adopt them myself.

Most rescues have microchipped, vaccinated and neutered the dogs in their care before they are available for adoption which often costs more than the fee the rescue asks for as a donation.